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A little confused. Is Aikiken the name given to all sword techniques within aikido as implied in the first part or just what was developed by Saito, as implied in the second part. For instance I would hesitate calling the kumitachi practiced by Shodokan aikido - aiki-ken. In the latter case the idea is to give an introduction to the sword (since that is the base of many of the aikido techniques) with the techniques not modified with aikido principles in mind. That relationship is found in other styles (even within the Aikikai). At the very least you need to make clear what exactly makes something aiki-ken.

I suggest moving the entire first paragraph of "Iwamma Style Aiki-ken" as the second paragraph of the article. Peter Rehse 05:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Those are good questions, Peter, and I was hoping you would know the answer to some of them. I was under the impression that "aiki-ken" was a generic term that means what it is: aikido's sword curriculum. I.e., if one is learning sword techniques within the auspices of an aikido school (and specifically, those techniques descend from Ueshiba's teachings, rather than from some other school of swordsmanship) you are practicing aiki-ken. Iwama style aiki-ken would be specifically the codification, modification, and systemization of Ueshiba's teachings by Saito and his son. For example, I believe (although I could be mistaken), that the seven aiki-ken suburi that Saito taught, and published both in his book and on video, were a distillation of the five kumi-tachi (which are also on the video) originally taught by Ueshiba. Likewise with the twenty jo suburi being Saito's distillation of Ueshiba's thirty-one point kata (Sanjuichi no Jo). The head of our martial arts program had a rather close relationship with the late Saito Sensei, whom we have all held in very high regard, so our program has always incorporated a greater than average amount of weapons training, but I'm afraid that I know no more than this regarding the "official" meaning of aiki-ken.
Now I believe that presently the article at least implies this relationship, but (assuming that what I have stated above is actually true) it certainly could be much clearer.Bradford44 14:59, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just to weigh in as an ASU person, Saotome Sensei hasn't to my knowledge used the term Aiki-ken to describe his swordwork, and he's developed a bunch of stuff of his own. I know Nishio Sensei did, too. When I hear people from my organization and from others refer to Aiki-ken they are very specifically referring to Saito Sensei's syllabus. IMO, there is an element of respect in this...people don't want to say they are studying/practicing "Aiki-ken" unless they are practicing Saito Sensei's teachings, because, well, they ain't studying Saito Sensei's teachings. Transentient 21:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm leaving the decisions and editing to you but from my point of view aiki-ken and aiki-jo are both related to Ueshiba through Saito and imply a modification or developement of weapons techniques with a view towards developing aikido technique. Sword and yari techniques were taught by Takeda, and practiced by Ueshiba and his students before Iwama. I know the Shodokan ones the best and they are not related at all to the aiki-ken. Several Aikikai teachers, such as Chiba, who do weapons work may also distance themselves from the term. Others may embrace it. I don't think the article needs to get complicated about it but I must say the term is not monolithic.Peter Rehse 01:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have had a lot of thoughts on this in the years since my most recent post here. What I would like to do is to slightly modify the article to not be so exclusive of swordwork, designed to demonstrate aikido principals and having nothing to do with actual combat, that is NOT descendant from Saito Sensei or even Ueshiba. For example, the stuff Minoru Inaba Sensei learned from the Kashima Shinryu and passed to Tissier Sensei. I don't believe the article needs to be changed significantly at all, I just think Saito Sensei's role should be tweaked in the into paragraph, and the statement to the effect that "other groups have integrate weapons into their syllabi but these are not aiki-ken" needs to be changed. I'll make the changes in a little while if I have the time and nobody takes up the debate here. Transentient (talk) 17:19, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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