Talk:Ahluwalia (caste)

Remove outer caste word

Ahluwalia caste

There are many gotras under Ahluwalia caste and all them are not Kalals, as it's name was also a misl. So considering each Ahluwalia as Kalal/outcaste is wrong. GurSikh123 (talk) 05:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Ahluwalia caste

I have read eveyhwere on Every site and books that ahluwalias originally belonged to the kalal caste. None of my ahluwalia friends accepted that they are Jat.. please confirm. Garimattttttt (talk) 12:18, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Garimattt I think you belongs to a third class community.You don’t know anything about ahluwalia and I am sure you are 100 percent a karnwal or a jaiswal.You low blood thieves and stealing our proud name and the ahluwalia friends you are talking are not ahluwalias they are karnwals and jaiswala who started writing their name as ahluwalia after 1950 because they don’t have any history of their own.So u pls take the hell out of ur jaiswal ass from here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.44.138.26 (talk) 21:28, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Ahluwalia caste

Mr.Utcursch is mentioning everyone from the Ahluwalia misl as kalal & even insulting each Ahluwalia gotra as outcaste, which is wrong as there are approximately 60 gotras in Ahluwalia misl & all of them are not Kalals or outcaste as it was a misl and anyone was free to join it. Please review this page again, since the same shall insult all the gotras using Ahluwalia as title who are not Kalals/outcastes. Mr.Utcursch is requested to learn more in depth about all Ahluwalia misl gotras before writing such hateful lines in the wikipedia page. Also refer to books like The Golden book of India by author Sir.Roper Lethbridge, Advanced History of the Punjab: Ranjit Singh and post Ranjit Singh period by author G.S.Chhabra, Sardar Jassa Singh Ahluwalia by author Ganda Singh and Sikhs in the Eighteenth Century: Their Struggle for Survival and Supremacy by author Surjit Singh Gandhi to understand the ancestry of respected Sardar Jassa Singh Ahluwalia. GurSikh123 (talk) 18:10, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

I am not mentioning anything: the source cited in the article The A to Z of Sikhism describes the caste as "A small Sikh caste, originally Kalals or brewers of country liquor.". If you have any source that contradicts this, and asserts that the caste comprises "60 gotras", including those of non-Kalal origin, feel free to add them to the article. See Wikipedia:How to cite your sources. utcursch | talk 19:13, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Dear Utcursch, Kindly also refer to books like: The Golden book of India by author Sir.Roper Lethbridge page.233 on Kapurthala, Advanced History of the Punjab: Ranjit Singh and post Ranjit Singh period by author G.S.Chhabra, Sikhs in the Eighteenth Century: Their Struggle for Survival and Supremacy by author Surjit Singh Gandhi to understand the ancestry of respected Sardar Jassa Singh Ahluwalia belonged to both Jat and kalal caste as mentioned in the above books or sources. GurSikh123 (talk) 19:38, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Mr.Utcursch please read the facts about Ahluwalia caste from many sources citing Sardar Jassa Singh Ahluwalia caste background from both Jat and kalal caste gotras. You are again requested to understand the real ancestry of respected Sardar Jassa Singh Ahluwalia as both from Jat and kalal caste, clearly mentioned in old books like Golden book of India authored by Sir Roper Lethbridge pg.233 on Kapurthala, The Advanced history of Punjab authored by G.S.Chhabra pg.466, book Jassa Singh Ahluwalia authored by Ganda Singh pages 1-6, Sikhs in Eighteenth Century by author Surjit Singh Gandhi. Your edits are always changed for the same reason everytime by other readers. GurSikh123 (talk) 17:10, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Before you update the article, please see Wikipedia:How to cite your sources. utcursch | talk 19:51, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Hello Utcursch utcursch|talk , please read details in books by Sir Roper Lethbridge pg.233 on Kapurthala, The Advanced history of Punjab authored by G.S.Chhabra pg.466, book Jassa Singh Ahluwalia authored by Ganda Singh pages 1-6, Sikhs in Eighteenth Century by author Surjit Singh Gandhi. I hope you will clearly understand the details mentioned in it & edit information accordingly that Sardar Jassa Singh Ahluwalia belonged to both Jat & Kalal caste. Please read in detail so that all information is written correctly. TruthfulTalk9 (talk) 19:25, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Dear Utcursch, The history has to be correctly written & you are again advised to read the book "The Advanced history of Punjab" authored by G.S.Chhabra pg.466, book "The Golden book of India" Authored by Sir Roper Lethbridge pg.233 on Kapurthala, book "Jassa Singh Ahluwalia" authored by Ganda Singh pages 1-6, book "Sikhs in Eighteenth Century" by author Surjit Singh Gandhi. Kindly note that the above sources clearly mention Sardar Jassa Singh Ahluwalia ancestry from Jat background. GurSikh123 (talk) 19:39, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Feel free to update the article with proper citations, and please don't remove existing sources. See Wikipedia:How to cite your sources. utcursch | talk 01:08, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Hello Utcursch, Sure the sources would be added & this wikipedia page on Ahluwalia caste shall be rewritten as many authors clearly mention Sardar Jassa Singh Ahluwalia father's ancestry from Jat background(Already informed the authors to you in above talkpage) & in North India the ancestry is taken from fathers side(I hope you are aware of it). Sardar Jassa Singh Ahluwalia was also given the title of Nawab & honored as Sultan ul Quam, so calling Ahluwalia's close to outcaste is somewhat insulting the whole Ahluwalia community. Also note that Ahluwalia name was also Misl name & anyone was free to join it. Kindly also be informed that both Mata Sundari & Nawab Kapur Singh Virk had themselves taken care of Sardar Jassa Singh Ahluwalia since childhood & trained him to be a superior General in the Sikh forces & later he also succeeded Nawab Kapur Singh Virk as the leader of all the Misl's in Punjab. GurSikh123 (talk) 18:21, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Regarding this edit, please do not remove existing sourced content. Moreover, the sources you cited do not talk about the Ahluwalia caste, which is different from Ahluwalia (misl). Also, colonial civil servants like Roper Lethbridge are not acceptable sources for the ancestry of the rulers: their lack of objectivity and reliability has been discussed several times at WP:RSN and WT:IN. utcursch | talk 22:15, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

The existed content was not removed, but actually corrected. Secondly why have removed other sources saying Ahluwalia misl was started by a person who was Jat by race but his profession was distillation of wine or can you please differentiate between people from Ahluwalia caste are different from the people of Ahluwalia misl??(with the help of any written source)?? Thirdly current living His Higness of Kapurthala mention themselves as Jat and kalal to which correctly they belong to, which is clearly mentioned in the book Prince Patron Patriarch written himself by Brigadier HH Sukhjit Singh(His Highness of Kapurthala). Fourthly you are requested not to remove any sourced information again or prove that sources are wrongly mentioned with the help of clear written sources & not discussions. GurSikh123 (talk) 02:55, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

A source distinguishing between the caste and the misl clearly has two separate entries on these topics: The A to Z of Sikhism by W. H. McLeod, page 6.

The sources that you provide are not talking about the caste (which is what this article is referring to). Also see Wikipedia:Independent sources: Even if this article was about the misl, the claims of royal family of Kapurthala (or affiliated sources) are not acceptable sources: there are several royal houses in India claiming glorious ancestry including from gods. The Kapurthala family's claim of Rajput and Jat ancestry is already noted in the article with independent sources. utcursch | talk 15:10, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

There are other sources also claiming that Jassa Singh Ahluwalia is from Jat & kalal background & not only the Royal House of Kapurthala, which was clearly rewritten in the previously edited article & I repeat that you should read the quote again from the book Prince Patron and Patriarch saying or read page 7-8 from the same book 'Quote: Jassa Singh Ahluwalia came to be known as Jat Kalal to which his ancestors belonged' which clearly talks about the caste and nobody has claimed that this book is an unreliable source till date. TruthfulTalk9 (talk) 17:33, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

The article already states that "they came to be known as Jats". Ignoring the fact that the book is not an independent source (it's authored by a member of the royal house of Kapurthala), by your own admission, it refers to the Kalal ancestry, whose mention you have been removing from the article. utcursch | talk 15:25, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

References used from the book by WH McLeod are incorrect. First of all Ahluwalia is always written as Ahluwalia. WH McLeod’s research on Sikh History has been controversial and questioned by Sikh Scholars. WH McLeod has never used reliable sources for his book. So references from him about Sikh History are null and void. Utcursch can you please stop editing this page again and again as your actions align with Wikipedia vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.21.106.122 (talk • contribs)

Please present a reliable source for your claim that WH McLeod is incorrect about the Ahluwalia-Kalal connection (that's the bit you've been removing from a bunch of IP and sock accounts). Plus, the article cites Donald Anthony Low - you have been removing/editing the sentences supported by that reference as well. utcursch | talk 12:01, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Utcursch can you please prove the legitimacy of the information provided by the books cited by you????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.21.28.113 (talk • contribs)

They are scholarly books written by qualified academics and published by WP:RS-compliant. If you want a third-party opinion about their reliability, feel free to drop a note at WP:RSN.

Also, at this point, your edits are introducing deliberate factual errors. For example, in this edit, you replaced "brewing" with "farming", "spurious" with "Real" etc. - these changes are not at all supported by any source, cited or otherwise. utcursch | talk 14:02, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Refer to - the golden book of India written by Sir Roper Lethbridge page 233

No answer Utcursch ???? As expected, you only copy paste.

Repeated vandalism of this page won’t help utcursch.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.21.28.113 (talk • contribs)

Already addressed in comment on 13 December 2020 above. Frankly, I've been very patient with your uncivil comments[1][2], downright misinformation (changing "spurious" with "real" etc. as mentioned above), and your constant sockpuppetry. So, I'm now going to block you and your sockpuppets/meatpuppets from All India Ahluwalia Mukh Sabha on sight. If you have any concerns, you can take them to WP:ANI or WP:RSN. utcursch | talk 16:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2021

I want to edit this page with real sources. 2402:8100:2199:B8B2:49A4:7CE7:8D35:E94A (talk) 21:37, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ◎ | melecie | t 23:17, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2021

Ahluwalia belongs to Rajput clan and not Kalal clan. Please read a book "Deeper Roots Of The Gill, Bhatti, Sidhu, Brar, Toor, and Related Jat and Rajput Clans" by Gurcharan Singh Gill found at https://www.academia.edu/1092421/Deeper_Roots_Of_The_Gill_Bhatti_Sidhu_Brar_Toor_and_Related_Jat_and_Rajput_Clans

The Ahluwalia Clan descends from Jaisal Bhatti through his son Salvihan just as Sidhu and Brar Clans descend from Jaisal Bhatti through Memhel. They are also related to the Manj Rajputs as we will see below. Sadhu Singh Ahluwalia was an enterprising zamindar who founded four villages near Lahore, one of which was named Ahlu. The name Ahluwalia is derived from the name of this village. Their genealogy is as follows. There are 20 generations from Jaisal Bhatti to Sadhu Singh Ahluwalia, the patronymic name for the Ahluwalia clan. From father to son, these generations are: Jaisal, Salbahan, Chandar, Uchal, Jagpal, Dhan or Dhom, Padmarth, Bhan, Bharapal, Udharan, Chandarpal, Rana Tulsi, Gaggar, Gajraj, Salhu, Saina Singh, Badhawa Singh, Ganda Singh, and Sadhu Singh.Sadhu Singh had a son, Gopal Singh, who had a son, Dewa Singh or Daya Singh, who had three sons, namely, Gurbakhsh Singh, Sadar Singh, and Badar Singh, who died in 1723. His son was Sardar Jassa Singh who died in 1783. He was the most illustrious Raja of the Ahluwalia Clan. Sada Singh had two children, Lal Singh and Mana Singh. Lal Singh had one son, Mohar or Mahar Singh. Gurbakhsh Singh’s son was Kirpal Singh, whose son was Ladha Singh, whose son was Sardar Bagh Singh who succeeded Jassa Singh and died in 1801. Bagh Singh’s son was Fateh Singh who died in 1836 and left two sons, namely, Amar Singh and Raja Nihal Singh who died in 1852 and left three sons and a daughter, namely, Raja Randhir who died in 1870; Bikrama Singh who died in 1887; Kanwar Suchet Singh who was born in 1837; and a daughter who married Diwan Singh of Makandpur and died in 1845. She had a son, Bhagat Singh who was born in 1845 and had a son, Gulab Singh who was born in 1861. Gulab Singh had four sons, namely, Arjan Singh who was born in 1879; Angad Singh who was born in 1880; Rajeshar Singh who was born in 1883; and Triloka Singh who was born in 1885.Kanwar Suchet Singh had a son, Ranjit Singh who was born in 1883. Bikrama Singh had two sons, Partab Singh who was born in 1871 and Daljit Singh who was born in 1879. Raja Randhir Singh died in 1870 and had two sons, namely, Raja Kharak Singh who died in 1877, and Raja Harnam Singh who was born in 1851. Raja Harnam Singh had six sons, namely, Raghbir Singh who was born in 1876; Maharaj Singh who was born in 1878; Shamsher Singh who was born in 1879; Rajinder Singh who was born in 1883; Inderjit Singh who was born in 1884; and Dalip Singh who was born in 1885. Raja Kharak Singh had a son, Raja Jagat Jit Singh who was born in 1872 and he had four sons, namely, Tikka Paramjit Singh who was born on 18th March 1892; Kanwar Mahijit Singh who was born on 9th of May 1898; Kanwar Amar Jit Singh who was born on 4th of August 1894; and Kanwar Karam Jit Singh who was born on 9th of June 1896. Arman45458383 (talk) 19:05, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Melmann 21:16, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2022

Harry walia69 (talk) 21:52, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Ahluwalia (also transliterated as Ahluvalia) is an Indian caste native to the Punjab region.

The Ahluwalias originally belonged to the jatt caste, whose traditional occupation was farming country liquor. The jatts held a high status in the traditional caste hierarchy, close to the Rajputs. In the 18th century, the Sikh chief Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, who belonged to the Kalal caste, adopted the surname "Ahluwalia" after the name of his ancestral village. His descendants became the ruling dynasty of the Kapurthala State. In the late 19th century, other Kalals also adopted the Ahluwalia identity, as part of a Sanskritisation process to improve their social status, resulting in the formation of the Ahluwalia caste. They gave up their traditional occupations, as they gained political power and as the colonial British administration started regulating distribution and sale of liquor. This attempt was successful, and the Ahluwalias came to be considered equal to the high-ranked Khatris in the caste hierarchy. The Kalals took up new occupations, and in particular, a large number of Ahluwalias served in the army.

Some of the Ahluwalias further tried to enhance their social status by claiming Khatri or Rajput descent. For example, a legendary account traces the ancestry of the Kapurthala royal family to the Bhatti Rajput royal family of Jaisalmer (and ultimately to Krishna through Salibahan). According to this narrative, a group of Bhattis migrated to Punjab, where they came to be known as Jats, and became Sikhs. The account states that Sadho Singh and his four sons married into Kalal families, because of which the family came to be known as Ahluwalia. Lepel Griffin (1873), a British administrator who wrote on the history of Punjab's rulers, dismissed this account connecting the Ahluwalias to the Jaisalmer royal family as spurious. The Sikh author Gian Singh, in his Twarikh Raj Khalsa (1894), noted that the Ahluwalia family had adopted the Kalal caste identity much before Sadho Singh.

Most of the Ahluwalias follow either Sikhism or Hinduism.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:54, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2024

145.224.65.85 (talk) 03:22, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Caste belong to kalal jatt Not a outer caste,

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Sincerely, Guessitsavis (she/they) (Talk) 21:51, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 September 2024

2409:40D1:100C:9EC5:D09B:190A:366C:3DB2 (talk) 19:15, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Ahluwalia (also transliterated as Ahluvalia), is an Indian caste native to the Punjab region. The Ahluwalias originally belonged to the Royal Jatt caste, whose traditional occupation was farming. The Jatts held a high status in the traditional caste hierarchy.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Jamedeus (talk) 23:12, 14 September 2024 (UTC)