Talk:Agency in Mormonism

"Free" agency

In light of the last paragraph of this article, should this article be renamed to "Agency (Mormonism)"? Val42 05:31, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I second the motion. Cathryn 11:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Since it has been a while and there was no opposition, I'm moving the article. Val42 05:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Definition

I've just read the definition given in the first paragraph. Considering it... isn't this but another name for "free will"? --euyyn 16:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

They are very close. But they should be discussed in different articles because they cover different contexts and will have different coverage of the issue. Val42 05:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

For example? --euyyn 01:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I read the free will article, and it has a religious section. But the "free will" article is already rather large. If this article were combined with that one, it would become even larger. I'm actually planning on going the other direction, when I get time, maybe this weekend. I will make a short summary in the "free will" article, move any information in that article to here, and restructure this article. Val42 03:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Restructure of article

I just restructured the article. I started by rewriting the Mormonism section of the free will article with a prominent "See also" to this article. I then copied the summary paragraph (mostly intact) to become the introductory paragraph for this article. I then broke this article in to sections that I thought would be appropriate and started writing text for said sections. This worked to help me figure out what information should go in each section even though little of my original text survived to the final edit. I then moved existing text to the appropriate sections.

I think that the article is much improved, but there are some problems that I don't think I can fix right now:

• The rewrite has POV problems. I tried to write it such like "LDS beliefs are", but I detect some places where it reads like "this is the way it is."
• This article needs more references. I was more interested in fixing the structure right now than in looking for references.
• The section titles are the best that I could come up with right now, but I'm not quite satisfied.
• Does the text flow well? After such a rewrite, I have to take a few days vacation before I can come back and fix such problems myself.

Someone else please look at the entire article and these points in particular and fix the article. Val42 01:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I think this could help us deal with the POV: WP:WAF. Our article isn't strictly about "fiction", but, after reading the policy, I think it's applicable (easily, indeed) to a belief. I'll try to help in it. --euyyn 07:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Original research

We need a lot more references and inline citations, which you should be able to find in abundance at the Gospel Library. For now it probably needs the original research tag. See Wikipedia:No original research. --Lethargy 05:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I added references for the introductory paragraph, which had the only OR tag, so I removed the tag. I also have gone through the article and added a few references. We still need more references, but those should be flagged with "CITE" tags (IMHO).

If somebody has time, I suggest the scripture references be placed in footnotes and use wikisource to link to the actual scripture. Anybody up to that? wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 18:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

References

The quote from the Temple Preperation manual does not have an end quote punctuation mark. 65.7.232.42 03:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I added the quote. Thanks for catching that. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 02:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

LDS belief. Cast away from god indefinitely or to return eventually?

The second volunteer, Lucifer, attempted to amend the plan by proposing that all mankind would return to Heavenly Father despite their sins - essentially, defeating agency and the divine principle of accountability for action. God the Father chose the plan that he proposed with Jesus as the Savior. Lucifer and his followers rebelled against this plan and were eventually cast out of Heaven and became Satan.

OK, so according to this above paragraph, Mormonism seems to attest to the view that you can be separated from God indefinitely. i.e. "cast into hell." However, my Mormon friends claim that everyone goes to heaven eventually after spending a varying amount of time in Spirit Prison according to their sins and that there "is no hell." So which is it according to LDS doctrine? 67.5.156.121 (talk) 22:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

See Outer_Darkness#Popular_use:_permanent_abode_of_sons_of_perdition and Son_of_perdition#The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints. It's true Mormons believe nearly all people born on the earth will eventually go to a "heaven", or degree of glory. There are apparently a select few that will not, however. "Hell" in Mormon belief usually refers to the period of time during which people suffer for their sins; these are the people that then end up in the telestial kingdom. Snocrates 23:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Also only those in the highest degree of glory (celestial) are in the presence of God, those in the terrestrial and telestial are cut off from the presence of God —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.73.172.100 (talk) 01:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

It should be understood that we believe Spirit Prison is a temporary state for those who did not receive the gospel in this life or were disobedient. It is possible for those who did not hear or know of the gospel in this life to receive the gospel in the next and receive Celestial glory in the day of judgement(see D&C 138:30-35). However, if someone rejects the opportunity to receive gospel in this life, but later receives it in the post-mortal world then they cannot be in the Celestial glory; they will instead go to the Terrestrial kingdom(see D&C 76:73-74). There are none who will remain in spirit prison save it be the sons of perdition and Satan and those who followed him in the pre-earth life. This being so, all others will receive a kingdom of glory, being in order: Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. The Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms receive some glory but are cut off from the presence of God forever. Only in the Celestial glory can we be with God forever. I hope this clears it up. If not any additional questions you may have can be answered here:LDS website Kingdoms of glory Ridoco234 —Preceding undated comment added 20:41, 4 December 2010 (UTC).

There is then the issue of hierarchy for those who did not battle against Satan with sufficient merit (or will?) when they were in God's Celestial glory before creation. It is of course an issue for those who are black, since traditionally black people were thought by Joseph Smith and Young to be the incarnation of these insufficient (or possibly renegade) spirits which lacked merit in heaven; thus explaining the verse in the Book of Mormon stating that when one dies one becomes white. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.115.44.174 (talk) 00:08, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Other denominations

Sorry, I know this isn't the right place for this, but I was wondering if this concept really isn't taught in other churches. I'm LDS and I always assumed it was. thanks.--FUNKAMATIC ~talk 16:29, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

See moral agency and free will. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 15:40, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Rename from Agency (LDS Church) to Agency (Mormonism)

This article was changed a while back to the present Agency (LDS Church), but I think we should return it to Agency (Mormonism). This doctrine is essentially shared, for example, with Fundamentalists. Anyone disagree? COGDEN 05:12, 12 February 2011 (UTC)