Talk:Afrasia djijidae/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Keilana (talk · contribs) 16:44, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Nice job on this article. I'll do some copyedits - just a few minor things - but anything major I will leave down here.

Thank you very much for the review! I will try to have things patched up in the next couple of days. – Maky ^« talk » 02:18, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for the comments! I've replied to some of your concerns below. Ucucha (talk) 05:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Lead

• The references and taxobox look good.
• You write that it is either 94 or 108 grams, can you clarify that they are either 2 separate estimates or a range of estimates?
  • It's two separate estimates, but I can't think of a good way to phrase that succinctly. Perhaps we should just say "around 100 g". Ucucha (talk) 04:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Yes, it's two estimates, per the source: "estimated body weight of 108 g on the basis of M2 length and 94 g on the basis of M1 area". Maybe Ucucha is right... an estimate may be better. Alternatively, we could treat it as a range. – Maky ^« talk » 14:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

If you want to keep it brief in the lead, I'd personally go with "around 100 g", and then go into greater detail in the later paragraphs. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 21:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Done. – Maky ^« talk » 14:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

• When you say "if these affinities", do you mean "if this assumption/hypothesis/theory"?
  • I think just "this" works here. Ucucha (talk) 04:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm still confused about what this means. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 21:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Changed to "If this relationship is correct"... Not sure how else to clarify unless you can explain what you're not following. – Maky ^« talk » 14:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah, that makes so much more sense. <feels dumb> Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 12:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• What is a stem simian?
  • They are simians from the stem group, and both of those terms are explained. Maky, what do you think?
    • Not only is this tough to define within paleoanthropology (since there's not much agreement), it would be very hard to gloss. As Ucucha points out, both "stem" and "simian" are already glossed and/or linked in the preceding sentences. It's not even like they are spread out across multiple paragraphs or sections. – Maky ^« talk » 14:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
      • Oops, missed that. If it's that hard to define, then I'm good with just leaving the wikilinks. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 17:19, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
• I think you glossed anthracotheres, can you gloss hystricognathus rodents also? I'm not a primate biologist, sorry!
  • They're rodents (not primates) in a particular group known as the hystricognaths. I don't think there's much to clarify here—it's not relevant to this article to explain more about hystricognaths. Ucucha (talk) 04:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Yes, this is where a link should be sufficient, I think. – Maky ^« talk » 14:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
      • The reason I brought this up was that you explained one but not the other, would you both be okay with either explaining both or just linking both? I think either would help readability. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 17:19, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
        • I removed the glossed info for anthracotheres. It's just not possible to gloss hystricognaths, but I figured that at least one was explained while the other was paired with the word "rodents"... which is descriptive enough to give people a general idea. – Maky ^« talk » 14:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

If it's not possible then I can't ask you to do it! <grin> Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 12:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• I didn't want to mess with the phrase for fear of giving an incorrect meaning, but "closely similar to those of Afrotarsius and Eosimiidae" is awkward and unclear.
  • I'm sorry, I don't see the problem here, and can't immediately think of a better wording. Ucucha (talk) 04:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Likewise, I don't see the difficulty. – Maky ^« talk » 14:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
      • My problem was with the phrase "closely similar" specifically, now that I look at it again, I think either "close to those of Afrotarsius and Eosimiidae" or "similar to those of Afrotarsius and Eosimiidae" would work.
        • I went with the latter. Thanks for clarifying and offering a suggestion. – Maky ^« talk » 14:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 12:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• The phrase "Afrasia is part of a diverse primate community" implies that it's still alive.
  • Fixed. Ucucha (talk) 04:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Etymology

• I know this may sound dumb, but what was the girl's name? Reader-me is totally curious about that.
  • I was curious about this too, but I think there is nothing else in the sources about this topic. Ucucha (talk)
    • Yes, I also wanted to know more, but the source simply doesn't say. Given that it's dedicated "in memory of" and not "in honor of", I suspect some privacy may be in order. – Maky ^« talk » 14:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Makes sense, not an issue then. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 17:21, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Evolutionary history

• You already glossed simians in the lead, I think, so it's unnecessary here. Same goes for clades.
  • Removed for "simians", but I don't see where "clade" was glossed in this section. I do see where we try to clarify stem and crown clades. – Maky ^« talk » 14:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

That must have been what I noticed. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 18:38, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

• However, glossing "affinities" and "crown" simians would be super helpful.
  • If "affinities" is too obscure, I'd prefer to swap it out for a more recognizable word—we don't need that particular term. I've glossed "crown", but am worried the explanation may be too technical. Those terms make sense when you think in terms of phylogenetic trees, but not much otherwise. Ucucha (talk) 04:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

"Affinities" has a different meaning, I think, for paleobiologists, what would you suggest as an alternative? The "crown simians" explanation is fine. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 18:38, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

We can say "relationship"... but I think the term affinities has a more subtle meaning. According to thefreedictionary.com, it means: "(Biology)—A relationship or resemblance in structure between species that suggests a common origin." In other words, the affinities suggest a close relationship and/or similarities in morphology (possibly due to convergent evolution). – Maky ^« talk » 14:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

If that's the more precise term then use that, no biggie. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 12:39, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• I just noticed, while doing copyedits, that you use {{sfn}}. Did User:Br'er Rabbit get ahold of your articles too? Because he is awesome at references.
  • No, I've been using it for over 2 years now, and I believe I started when I re-wrote Lemur. It's a very useful referencing tool. But thanks. – Maky ^« talk » 14:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I concur, it's most excellent. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 18:38, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

• I think an explanation of primitive and derived traits would be especially useful.
  • I've added "ancestral" in parentheses behind "primitive", but derived is harder to explain succinctly. Given what the word generally means in English, and given that these terms contrast each other, I think the general public should be able to get the picture for themselves. If not, there is a link. – Maky ^« talk » 14:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

OK, if the definition doesn't differ too much it's fine. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 18:38, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

• Is "upper upper molars" a "department of redundancy department" thing or an actual scientific term?
  • It refers to the permanent dentition, as opposed to the milk dentition, which is located below the upper upper molars until it falls out. Or perhaps it's just a typo. Ucucha (talk) 04:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Lol! Yes, it was a typo. – Maky ^« talk » 14:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Heh, looks good now. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 18:38, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

• Do you have an age on the younger deposits in Egypt?
  • I even put it in a comment, which is now actually in the text. Ucucha (talk) 04:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

That's what happens when I print articles out. Thanks! Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 18:38, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

• I'm quite confused by the sentence that begins "Afrotarsiidae was recovered...". Could you clarify what that's all about?
  • I hope it's clearer now. Ucucha (talk) 04:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, I understand, looks good. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 18:38, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

• When you write "at the time, both land masses would have been separated by the Tethys Sea", what time are you talking about? The 40-ish million years ago bit?
  • I believe so. Does it need clarification? Ucucha (talk) 04:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so - I assumed from the context that it was 40-ish million years ago, just wanted to make sure the right implication was there. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 18:38, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

• Could you clarify what "ascertain its true affinities" means in a scientific context?
  • Determine what it is related to—perhaps (it's unlikely) people will decide that it is a tarsier after all. We can't be sure. Ucucha (talk) 04:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, that makes sense. Thanks. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 18:38, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

• I feel like you've wikilinked "dispersal" a whole bunch of times. Are they all necessary?
  • It was linked twice; I've removed the second link. Ucucha (talk) 04:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 18:38, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Anatomy

• Are the "distinctive features" in the dentition you describe similarities to eosimiiforms/Afrotarsius, or features that distinguish A. djijidae from the other eosimiiforms? It's not quite clear in the text.
  • It's the latter; I've clarified. Ucucha (talk) 05:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Much better, thanks. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 17:41, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

• What does it mean for conules to be "stronger" or "weaker"?
  • More or less developed. Ucucha (talk) 05:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Gotcha. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 17:41, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

• On the whole, you've done a great job of glossing terms in this section. Not your fault there's a lot of redlinks not filled in. (No bearing on this GAN of course, but maybe consider writing some of those? I'm sure DYKs would be pretty easy to pick up there.)
  • It's actually fairly hard to write about those dental features, because information about them isn't as well compartmentalized as information about species. If you write about a species, especially a fossil, there is usually only a handful of papers that will supply almost all of the necessary information; for a dental feature, there will be lots of sources that mention the feature but few that actually discuss it in detail. I've written a couple of anatomical articles like interdigital webbing and posterolateral palatal pits, but it's hard to make them more informative than "this animal has them and this animal doesn't". Ucucha (talk) 05:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
    • I suspect that there is a good source, particularly "Mammal Teeth: Origin, Evolution, and Diversity". However, it's pricey and I may be moving out of the country soon, and I don't want another bulky book that I'll need to ship to myself. Not only that, but I'm not an expert on teeth, so I would need to learn the material first, before I start writing about it on Wiki. But otherwise, Ucucha is right—these are more general concepts (like "ecosystem" or "arboreal locomotion"), plus they are highly specialized, and therefore it is harder to find detailed information about them in a general context. – Maky ^« talk » 14:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I totally understand, it'll be a massive project when someone chooses to take it on. It's funny - we've been at it for more than 11 years and there are still holes in our coverage. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 17:41, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Other Stuff

• I've done a quick copyedit, feel free to revert if I screwed something up. Otherwise it looks good - no issues with images or any of that. Between you and Ucucha, I'm learnin a lot about fossilized mammals! I've actually remembered to watchlist this one, so I'll check in and see where you're at when it pops up. Thanks for a great, educational article! Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 03:23, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Thanks! I'm glad you're finding this interesting and educational. – Maky ^« talk » 14:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be moved to the genus name, as it is monotypic. That's the naming convention used for most other articles about monospecific genera. FunkMonk (talk) 15:50, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The genus name is a disambig page, and Ucucha suggested the species name because there is only one species in the genus. He has used this approach before with some of his rodent FAs. Otherwise, I will try to address the remaining concerns in the next day or two... or when I get back in town this weekend. – Maky ^« talk » 19:48, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see. FunkMonk (talk) 19:54, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to pass this now, thanks for your great work and your patience with my poor understanding of biology! (Hopefully soon to be rectified, but that's another story entirely!) Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 12:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Your review was very helpful. – Maky ^« talk » 12:49, 1 August 2012 (UTC)