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Merge discussion

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It seems much more useful to merge Aeroflot — Russian Airlines terminated destinations into basic article Aeroflot — Russian Airlines destinations. I will bear responsability for maintainig, actualisation (I have access to confidential info from inside of Aeroflot) and protecting from vandalism of the article Aeroflot — Russian Airlines destinations. Thank you! --Dimitree 21:37, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the merge is a good idea. As long as the information isn't too cumbersome, having one place with complete and inclusive information is usually better. Thank you for your follow through. And just to comment on you inside information, I'm not sure how that can be used since it can't be verified by other editors. Do they print their routes in those schedule books? ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • As for inside info, at least, I can verify any kind of information related to Aeroflot's network (actual and historical). At the moment, I can indicate 3 new destinations to which Aeroflot will fly soon (January, 2009) and 2 destinations which will be terminated (March, 2009), but I'm asked not to publish it untill official announce (summer schedule 2009 - end of March)... Dimitree 23:55, 22 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs)
Interesting. Are there a lot of other airlines now? I thought most former state airlines were struggling now under the weight of big bureaucratic operational procedures compared with innovative startups. Is this not the case in Russia? ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:26, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exclusion of pre-1992 terminated destinations

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Archive of discussion follows:

Hi, Kransky! Don't know if you speak Russian. May I ask you to pay attention to the changes you've done to the Aeroflot destinations article: it contains destinations served by Aeroflot as a flag-carrier of the Russian Federation (not of the USSR), starting from 1992. By that date, Aeroflot already dicontinued its flights to Burma/Rangoon. As well as Gander was used only for a technical stop (refuling, changing crew), not a regular destination. May I ask you to take it into consideration and not to remake it once again. Thank you and good luck! --Dimitree 22:06, 17 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs)

I do not speak Russian, but it is irrelevant to this issue. The Aeroflot of 1992 is still the same airline of 1982; I cannot see why earlier terminated destinations should not be included. What is the basis of this decision? What consensus has been made? Kransky (talk) 13:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
  • You wrote: The Aeroflot of 1992 is still the same airline of 1982. Definitely not! By the year of 1992, Aeroflot reduced twice its route-net. So what is the same in this case?
    • Moreover, if you insist in citating all the routes of Aeroflot, you should start from the year 1923 - when Aeroflot was found, - and include all its local flights to almost each city and village in USSR.
    • Moreover again: Aeroflot in 1992 is a flag-carrier of the Russian Federation, not of the Soviet Union (1982). It means, if you post a flight to Rangoon, for example, you citate the route of the aircompany belonging to a state that no more exists.
  • If you need more arguments, please, see the "Discussion" section of this very page "Aeroflot destinations". Regards, --Dimitree 19:41, 18 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs)
It is true that airlines evolve and change. Some get larger, some get smaller. But Aeroflot is - literally - the same airline. It is totally wrong to say it is not the same airline. It maintains the same legal structure. Aeroflot wasn't not disestablished on 31 December 1991 and restablished the same day.
I think your views are formed from a scope management perspective (and this is a better argument than your first). We cannot be certain which little villages in Turkmenistan SSR were served by Aeroflot in 1947, so we therefore should not include former destinations, unless all can be counted for. There are sound reasons for this argument, to maintain the core Wikipedia principle of consistency, and to prevent an incomplete list from being a misleading list. On this point, I would say that it would be nice to include some details of Aeroflot's glory days in a manner that would not violate these principles. I would also state that Wikipedia is a constant work in progress, and a good idea that would take time to develop cannot be held back automatically. Kransky (talk) 09:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

June 2009

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As already explained: This issue has been discussed at length several times. And the broad consensus amongst the editors has been to use the British Airways list as an example. And certainly, the established guidelines do say that regions may be used (though this is not recommended if the number of destinations is small). However, CIS is not a region - it is a political grouping. And whilst the Middle East certainly is a region, the term used by the project is Southwest Asia. Also, regions, when used, should be a subset of the continent said region is a part of. Regards what's in Europe and what's in Asia etc, here's the deal. Many countries are partly in Asia and partly in Europe (Turkey, Russia, Azerbaijan, Georgia etc). Since they identify more with Europe in several aspects (and, of course, for consistency's sake), it's been agreed that they will be listed under Europe. Cyprus, Armenia etc may be members of the EU or of the CoE, but they are physically entirely in Asia - so they get listed under Asia. Their political or cultural leanings are immaterial in this regard. I mean Cyprus could join the South Pacific La-La Union, but that doesn't move the country physically. As for the Aeroflot article, well, we all know no one 'owns' an article (even if they might consider it to be their 'baby'). In any event, changing formatting and cosmetics around to ensure consistency and adherence to established guidelines isn't vandalism; endlessly reverting those edits to meet an individual's vision of the world is! Thanks, Jasepl (talk) 07:24, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

To that end, AGAIN:
  • The CIS is NOT a continent or a region. It is a political grouping.
  • Kastrup International Airport, Fiumicino-Leonardo da Vinci International Airport, Heathrow International Airport etc DO NOT EXIST.
  • This is a list of destinations served (current or historic) by an airline. It is NOT a list of countries and their capital cities. The capital of the Seychelles is Victoria; the airport is in Mahe. No airline flies to Victoria, because, simply, there is no airport in Victoria. Or in Port Louis. Or Manama.
  • Cyprus and Armenia are in Asia. Parts of Turkey, Azerbaijan and Georgia are also in Asia, but they’re considered to be in Europe (at least for purposes of such lists). Just like Russia. If you want, we can move Russia to Asia?
  • See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Airlines/page_content#
Jasepl (talk) 11:03, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As already explained:

  • CIS - I do not care.
  • Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia are always considered to be Asian countries. And please, do not tell that they are going to join any European Unions or their cultures are very close to European - it is not a geographical reason to place them in Europe. It is much more silly considering that Azerbaijan (you place it in Europe) is more distant (phisically) from Europe that Armenia...
  • Cyprus and Turkey (partially) were always considered to be European countries. So it is discutable, but you place Turkey in Europe and Cyprus in Asia. Reasons? No one.
  • I'm not going to enumerate all not existing airports, just citate one [1] and please, say again it does not exist. The same almost for all others airports...
  • To your information:
Luxembourg City (capital of Luxembourg State) has its own airport Findel, even the only one in Luxembourg State.
Capital of Seychelles Islands is Victoria, located on Mahe Island where is also situated Seychelles International Airport, close to Victoria. The same for Mauritius [2], Bahrain [3]. Following your logics, there are no airportss in London, Paris, Amsterdam or Tokyo - no matter where, - because they are not phisically in these cities. So Lisbon Portela Airport or Reykjavík Airport airports, located inside the city territoires, are the only airports in Europe?

Resuming:

    • I agree on eliminating CIS as a political union. Ok..
    • I disagree on placing Azerbaijan in Europe - it is in Asia, no doubt.
    • I diasgree on eliminating capitals of some countries, like Luxembourg, Kuwait City, Victoria, Port Louis and others. These cities were indicated as destinations on each Aeroflot Network Map. Please, see references.
    • I disagree on eliminating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_east because it an oficially recognized geographical region and is indicated on Aerolfot Network Map [4].

Regards, --Dimitree 12:33, 15 June 2009 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs)

October 2009

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  • Dispute with User:Jasepl on place of Azerbaijan (Europe/Asia) on the list of Aeroflot – Russian Airlines destinations. Almost all Wiki sources indicate Azerbaijan is in Asia. As well as British Airways destinations, as example for all similar articles, gives the same: Azerbaijan as BA destination is in Asia. But my opponent - User:Jasepl - is not agree with it and is constantly deleting all my revisions placing Azerbaijan in Asia. Moreover, he deleted Azerbaijan from Asia section of BA Destinations in order to falcificate the truth [5]. So I do ask all editors to share their opinion on this issue. Thank you! --Dimitree 13:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs)
  • Dimitree, I have tried to explain to you several times, that the basis for the listing os NOT politics/ethnicity/history or any such intangible criteria. It's physical location that counts.. I will repeat here what you will find in those same Wiki sources you are citing above (and yes, I realise I have already given you this input several times in the past):
  • I'm sorry, but I cannot agree. And that is only because the countries in question haven't physically moved from where they are located. That's not my opinion; it's a fact.
• Europe's land "boundaries" are the Ural mountains to the East and the Caucasus mountains to the southwest - that is a long-established fact.
Also a fact (taken from Europe for the sake of convenience - also see the big map there):
• Armenia and Cyprus are physiographically entirely in Asia.
However,
• Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Russia and Turkey are transcontinental countries in Asia and Europe.
• Those are all facts, based on their actual physical location - not their political leanings or their group memberships, or emotional ties. A large part of Azerbaijani and Georgian territory is located along or north of the Caucasus mountains.
• So, if you insist on listing Azerbaijan in Asia (since it is transcontinental), then Russia should also be listed as an Asian country. A bigger part of Russia is East of the Urals, right?
• And no, Turkey really shouldn't be listed under Europe; with the exception of Thrace, the rest of the country is in Asia (that's over 97%).
Jasepl (talk) 18:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • Jasepl, u can agree or not - everyone is able to do/think everything he considers right. At least here, in virtual reality. No doubts. But there are evident facts, such as geography or physical state of things. And if you look at this [6] or at this map [7], you will see that Caucas is a natural physical border (terminator of white and green) between Europe and Asia. It is that Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia which are below this eventual border, as well as Eastern Turkey (Anatolya) and Cyprus, as you say, are "physiographically entirely in Asia". But you can consider them, for sure, "transcontinental countries in Asia and Europe". Physically they are in Asia by all meanings. Thanks!
    • P.S.: also, I'd like to discuss why you have excluded Middle East from Aeroflot list of destinations? Please, do not say that it has been agreed on using "BA Destinations" as the only one and unique example. --Dimitree 19:05, 27 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs)

Move page

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Aeroflot - Russian airlines destinations → Aeroflot destinations — The airline article is titled Aeroflot; this move would make the related destinations article's title consistent (with both the "parent" article and other such destination articles. --Jasepl (talk) 09:13, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Addition of new destinations

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Can editors please note that any additions to the list must have a reliable source. Rather than edit war it we be better if User:Dimitree could provide valid references for additions. If anybody has a problem with anything on the list then please just add a {{fact}} tag to any questionable edit that are not in the five references on the page to let other editors know of a problem. It may help if any questionable entries had inline citations added. Thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 20:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you. That's what I've been trying to explain, but failing miserably. Also trying to explain that "Aeroflot's planning department told me" is not a valid source, from any angle. But no matter what, it turns into a "You hate Russia" accusation! I stand by the project's basic editing and inclusion requirements and if a reliable and valid source for reference is not provided, edits will be reverted. Jasepl (talk) 01:28, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I agree. A valid reference needs to be included for such services (i.e. an ACTUAL airline press release). Snoozlepet (talk) 02:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with User:WhisperToMe and what he said on my talk page [8]. No problem. I'm enough ok to understand that any information must have a VALID source. Ok. I always provide such a source (with few exceptions). BUT! There is another problem - it is the approach that Jasepl has to all the rest: reverts without discussion on the appropriate page or simply deletes (official sources: web-sites, bulletines or GDS Timetable data) saying that someone "does not grasp of something". That is the problem. And that is the prove - a new revert of Aeroflot page maiden by Jasepl [9]. He has deleted again official code-share partners of Aeroflot (indicated on its web-site [10]), without any VALID source. I've kindly asked him already THRICE [11], [12], [13] to provide a VALID source. No reply. If you think it is ok - let's make it a rule for everyone: revert whatever you want. Thanx. --Dimitree (talk) 22:01, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Few words about Jasepl. He is constantly saying that he is trying to explain first and only after he reverts. It is not truth. He has been reverting even after when consensus was established. These are proves - Jasepl's brilliant chef-d'oeuvres, especially THIS [14] or THIS [15] or THIS [16].
  • He says that "no matter what it turns into a "You hate Russia" accusation". Have a look at these reverts[17],[18], [19],[20], [21] (SIC!), and say: how consider them if not like attack on Russia?

Domestic network from USSR days

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Why are these destinations missing? is it because there are no references, or too many to list, or is this article only about Russian Aeroflot and not its subsidiaries based in other republics at the time? did Aeroflot also not serve Moldova, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan back then? 116.71.21.50 (talk) 10:58, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

New table format

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Hello there. I have moved the entire list of both current and terminated destinations into a table format. Likewise, I have also expanded the introduction, added some terminated destinations, and provided references for them. By the way, I have eliminated the references including portions of timetables in IATA codes, as they might render incomprehensible for unexperienced readers. Any kind of feedback? Cheers.--Jetstreamer (talk) 00:33, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! I do appreciate the job has been done - great. But I'm against the new table format: hardly readable and complex for taking info out. I'd like to convert it back to the list of destinations as it is done for all other airlines. Thnx! --Dimitree (talk) 09:08, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there. Thanks for your opinion. I moved the entire list into a table format because there were many destinations appearing in the “old format” that it was hard to navigate them comfortably. Apart from being more friendly than a list format, the “new format” provides IATA and ICAO codes, which adds additional sorting parameters. Unlike your opinion, I believe a table format is more appropriate to get any column sorted and to readily find the information it contains (again, the “old format” lacks the IATA and ICAO codes, for instance). As to rolling the table back to a list format, to the best of my knowledge once a table format has been created it cannot be reverted. Notwithstanding, the current format can be improved with additional columns for continents and regions, as suggested in WP:AIRLINE, in order to filter or handle the information provided by the table even more. You should agree with me that these kinds of features were absent in the old format. Please let me know what you think. Regards.--Jetstreamer (talk) 14:31, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! You have done great job, but there was no any discussion. Any change is possible if only discussed and aprroved. Another point is that now this table is really hard readable. No other similar article has been reverted. Please, initiate discussion and only a compomise is achieved, do what ever you want. --Dimitree (talk) 18:23, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

PS: May i note that Aeroflot of USSR flied to 3600 destinations. Are you going to mention them all? Moreover, now it is Aeroflot of the Russian Federation and its has now absolutely different network. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs) 18:26, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

SVO-VNO service reintroduced in March 2012

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According to http://www.lithuaniatribune.com/2012/03/26/aeroflot-launches-direct-flights-from-vilnius-to-moscow/, SU has reintroduced its SVO-VNO service on March 25, 2012 Ttk371 (talk) 03:44, 8 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Archived references not used in the article

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  • "AEROFLOT Plans Moscow – Arkhangelsk / Murmansk Service from Jan 2015". Airline Roue. 24 April 2014. Archived from the original on 10 May 2014.
  • "Donavia Timetable (Effective 30 March 2014 (2014-03-30)–25 October 2014 (2014-10-25))". Donavia. 1 April 2014. Archived from the original on 1 April 2014.
  • "Aeroflot annonce un Moscou – Toronto" [Aeroflot announces a Moscow – Toronto service] (in French). Air Journal. 26 December 2012. Archived from the original on 6 January 2013.
  • "Donavia Timetable (Effective 27 October 2013 – 29 March 2014)". Donavia. 5 November 2013. Archived from the original on 5 November 2013.
  • "Donavia Timetable (Effective 31 March 2013 – 26 October 2013)". Donavia. 25 May 2013. Archived from the original on 26 May 2013.
  • "Donavia Timetable (Effective 28 October 2012 – 30 March 2013)". Donavia. 27 December 2012. Archived from the original on 27 December 2012.
  • "Donavia Timetable (Effective 25 March 2012 – 27 October 2012)". Donavia. 20 April 2012. Archived from the original on 20 April 2012.

--Jetstreamer Talk 20:13, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Add province

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Pleace add provinces in Russia, USA, China — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.179.45.24 (talk) 13:10, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Move discussion in progress

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Adria Airways destinations which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:15, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requires updating

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Current events make the current article less than accurate. An IP has been removing large swathes of texts along with destinations. I note the lede has already been tagged as too long but the IP has a point that the destinations are (currently) widely inaccurate. Ifnord (talk) 15:32, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Redundancy with parent article

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The history section of this article repeats information found in the parent article, such as when operations commenced and the non-transport tasks that Aeroflot carried out. Therefore, I will begin removing those facts from this article. If I find any information that is not present in the parent article, I will copy it over in accordance with WP:CWW.

Disclosure: I intend to nominate this article for deletion in the future; see my summary of past discussions about lists of airline destinations at WP:ALD. However, I don't want to create the impression that I am merging the history section into the parent article so that it's more likely that people !vote for deletion (or if I move any facts to the parent article, redirection to comply with WP:PATT). I have a legitimate reason for deleting or moving the information as explained above. Sunnya343 (talk) 00:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As noted by User:Jetstreamer, my removal of information causes the history section to lose coherence, so I will just copy information over and not simultaneously remove it from this article. Sunnya343 (talk) 21:32, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a box at the top of this talk page that shows the information I copied to the parent article. I decided not to copy over the following sentences:

  • Operations started on 15 July 1923... – Fact already in parent article
  • The name Aeroflot was adopted in 1932... – Fact already in parent article
  • By the end of the 1930s... – Indiscriminate list of every route the airline was flying at a particular point in time
  • Aeroflot's route network was... – Parent article already describes Aeroflot's route network in 1950. There is a massive difference between the network length mentioned here (31,500 km) and in the parent article (295,400 km) based on two different references, which I don't know how to reconcile...
  • By April 1965... – Parent article already contains a detailed description of the route network the year prior ("By 1964, Aeroflot operated direct flights from Moscow to...")
  • Sentences between The former monopolistic... and ...to simply Aeroflot – Russian Airlines. – Facts already in parent article
  • At March 2000... – Indiscriminate list of every destination at a particular point in time

Sunnya343 (talk) 17:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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