Talk:Adrenaline/Archive 4

This is an archive of past discussions about Adrenaline. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Price

Current price in major EN speaking countries IMO is notable. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:04, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

that is the price for the whole autoinjector + drug, not just for the drug. the price is discussed extensively in epineprine autoinjector. Jytdog (talk) 18:08, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes agree. But that is the common form it is sold for. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:44, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

I guess for consumers, yes. volume-wise i have no idea if more epinephrine is used for anaphylaxis readiness vs the other uses. about this, the generic product is not a generic of epipen, but of a different device. fwiw. Jytdog (talk) 05:40, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes it is a generic version of an autoinjector correct? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:09, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

yes it is. the issues are: a) Mylan announced it intended to bring a generic version of their own device (!) as one of their strategies to address the pricing outrage. They haven't yet. (discussed a bit here) Just saying "generic" might mislead people to think there is a generic EpiPen available now. b) changing from one device to another is non-trivial - the user has to be trained in whatever device they are using and outcomes are way better when people get good training (per this).

So the two devices for which we are offering prices are different in a way that matters, and there is the larger society&culture issue of the actual generic of EpiPen.

Please note I am not demanding that we restore the words to make it clear that the prices apply to two different devices; am just explaining why I added it in the first place. We can let this go. Jytdog (talk) 04:17, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Undefined reference errors

There's 2 undefined ref errors (see Epinephrine#References) that cite content in the Epinephrine#Society and culture section. I don't feel like going through the article history to find the right revisions to fix this at the moment, so I'm posting this thread in the event anyone is interested in doing so to replace the undefined named references. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 00:11, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Split drug from hormone (December 2016)

Have split into Epinephrine and Epinephrine (medication). There is also a suggestion to have the physiological info at Adrenaline and the medication related content at Epinephrine. Not sure if the literature support the latter suggestion? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:13, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

agree with split. I've put a matching hatnote in Epinephrine (medication).

Naming this one adrenalin might help avoid people putting content into the wrong article. (but that might just be a UK POV) - Rod57 (talk) 20:39, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

It's not just a UK POV. Apart from the Malay, Tagalog, Scots and simple English one, every other Latin-/Cyrillic-script Wikipedia uses "adrenaline" or equivalent spellings as the main name, hinting at how near-universal the term is at least in the non-medical sense. As a non-native speaker, I had never heard of epinephrine until I read this article. The argument to name the article based on the INN has been weak in the past, as the primary meaning is adrenaline/epinephrine as a neurotransmitter rather than a drug. This gets even weaker after the split. I favor moving this article to adrenaline. The drug-related article can then be moved to this title. Don Cuan (talk) 12:32, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Most of the archives of this talk page and some of the comments above (eg price) relate to the medication rather than the hormone. Can we somehow transfer or copy the related talk page content to Talk:Epinephrine (medication) ? or at least note there that the talk is here ? I'll leave a brief comment there but I expect there is a proper/better way to do it. - Rod57 (talk) 20:52, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Sure transfer away. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:42, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Copied from Epinephrine

I have copied the text from Epinephrine to here in accordance with talk page discussion there -- "adrenaline" is the more common term when talking about it as a hormone. See Epinephrine (no redirect) for history and talk. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 14:43, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

[1]I assume you saw this post after 'moving text'...--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 23:27, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

A retracted article is being cited

Hoelzer DR, Dalsky GP, Schwartz NS, Clutter WE, Shah SD, Holloszy JO, Cryer PE (July 1986). "Epinephrine is not critical to prevention of hypoglycemia during exercise in humans". The American Journal of Physiology. 251 (1 Pt 1): E104–10. PMID 3524257 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vctrbarbieri (talk • contribs) 18:05, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 10 August 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved - consensus against moving Adrenaline to Epinephrine. For those who commented that Epinephrine (medication) should be moved to Epinephrine, that page was not tagged as part of this RM, and so such suggestions are out of the scope of this discussion. However, I suggest that a separate RM be opened to allow for greater discussion about that proposed moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) DannyS712 (talk) 00:12, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Adrenaline → Epinephrine – It is the more WP:COMMONNAME and there is no objection to the page move. See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Epinephrine. QuackGuru (talk) 18:22, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:53, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

@QuackGuru, Seppi333, and BarrelProof: queried move request Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:56, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- Done Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 18:54, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
  - @Seppi333: / @QuackGuru:: Can I request a revert & a full RM for this? The linked discussion has the proponents of the move write that "adrenaline" is the more common term among laypeople, which is what Wikipedia usually uses, so this request seems controversial to me. SnowFire (talk) 19:00, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
    - I've reverted the move. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 19:02, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
    - See "Epinephrine (medication)". To keep it consistent Adrenaline should be changed to Epinephrine. QuackGuru (talk) 19:07, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
I still think there is consensus for a page move. See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Epinephrine. I would like my request to be reviewed by an admin. QuackGuru (talk) 19:21, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

That's entirely possible, but what's the hurry? Just file a RM and wait 7 days, if there's a consensus, it'll be moved then. It's fine to "pre discuss" on a Wikiproject talk page but it's possible the wider community will have opinions as well. SnowFire (talk) 19:48, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

An admin can decide if there is consensus for a page move. See Vasopressin (medication) to Vasopressin and Testosterone (medication) to testosterone. It is odd one article is called "Epinephrine (medication)" and there other one is called "Adrenaline". QuackGuru (talk) 20:05, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

That's a very interesting argument that can be considered in the RM discussion. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:26, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Oppose. As long as there are two separate articles (one for the medication and one for the hormone) this article should stay where it is, as "Adrenaline" seems to be the more common name for the naturally occurring hormone while "Epinephrine" is the more common name for the synthetic medication. It's also a good way to naturally disambiguate the two, so I would support moving Epinephrine (medication) to Epinephrine. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:55, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- Rreagan007, we don't distinguish the two using different names. See Vasopressin (medication) to Vasopressin and Testosterone (medication) to testosterone. Using different names implies they are chemically different substances There are both identical substances, and therefore should have the same name. The only difference is one should have the name "(medication)" in the title. I would oppose renaming Epinephrine (medication) to Epinephrine. QuackGuru (talk) 23:04, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
  - If the common name for the natural hormone and the common name for the medication differ, then they absolutely should have different title names on Wikipedia per WP:COMMONNAME. Rreagan007 (talk) 23:25, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
    - When the common name for the natural hormone and the common name for the medication are chemically the same, then they should have the same title names except for one with "(medication)" in the title. QuackGuru (talk) 23:28, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
      - Well, I disagree with you, and I think Wikipedia's article-naming policies disagree with you also, but we'll see what other people think about it. Rreagan007 (talk) 23:32, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
        See Vasopressin (medication) to Vasopressin and Testosterone (medication) to testosterone. You want to rename any of thoses? QuackGuru (talk) 23:36, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
        If one of those had a more common name I would. Are you saying that there is a more common name for "testosterone" than "testosterone"? If there is, I'm not aware of it. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:11, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        It is standard practice to have the names be the same across articles except for adding medication to the title. QuackGuru (talk) 00:30, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        And it's Wikipedia policy to have articles titled their most common name. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:13, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        I know. See 85,000,000 results for Adrenaline. See 7,650,000 results for Epinephrine. Epinephrine is the more common name. QuackGuru (talk) 01:24, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        QuackGuru, would you please come back here and try that math again? In what universe is 85 million smaller than 7.6 million Ghits? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:33, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        For this discussion it does not matter which one is the most common name when both are very common names. On google scholar 310,000 results for Adrenaline. 528,000 results for Epinephrine. QuackGuru (talk) 01:49, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        @Rreagan007: "Adrenaline" seems to be the more common name for the naturally occurring hormone while "Epinephrine" is the more common name for the synthetic medication. That's a patently false assertion; sources don't alternate between the use of these terms based upon context and I doubt you can back up that assertion with an RS. The common usage of epinephrine vs adrenaline in common/everyday language varies solely based upon geographic region and the variant of English spoken there. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 03:48, 11 August 2019 (UTC) @Thjarkur: Please read the preceding sentence. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 03:49, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

While doing some research on this topic, I found a pretty convincing article on the subject of which term should be preferred, and it makes a pretty strong case that "Adrenaline" should be the preferred term. Here's a short excerpt: "Not only is adrenaline the preferred technical term in most countries in the world, it is also the non-technical term for what people think of as the substance that surges through your body when you are on a high ... even in America. No one anywhere ever talks about a surge of epinephrine."[2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rreagan007 (talk • contribs) 04:07, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Oppose – Current title is recognizable, "epinephrine" is obscure to all but those who have studied biochemistry. Striving for matching titles is much less important than having recognizable titles. "Adrenalin" is no less scientific, the preferred name for the generic medication doesn't affect the common name of the hormone. To Rreagan007's point above, epinephrine is still synonymous with adrenaline (and most incoming links to epinephrine are referring to the hormone) so it is necessary to disambiguate. – Thjarkur (talk) 00:19, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
- You wrote "most incoming links to epinephrine are referring to the hormone". That suggests that most editors think epinephrine is the most common name for the hormone.
- Different names is confusing to the readers. Different names suggests they are chemically different. QuackGuru (talk) 00:28, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
  - Wikipedia sometimes uses different names for the same chemicals. White sugar is sucrose, but those are the same chemical. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:31, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
    - Sucrose is extracted, and refined, from either sugar cane or sugar beet. QuackGuru (talk) 01:36, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
      - So? Epinephrine is extracted, and refined, from either cattle or sheep adrenal glands. (It can also be made synthetically in a chemical reaction, just like sucrose can be made synthetically in a chemical reaction.) The fact that these chemicals get extracted from organisms doesn't change the fact that we have two separate articles about the same chemical, or the fact that we give them different names. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:45, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        Sugar contains more than just sucrose. QuackGuru (talk) 01:49, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        There are other examples, such as Ethanol and Alcohol (drug). Rreagan007 (talk) 02:35, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        There are examples for avoiding using different names, such as Cannabis and Cannabis (drug). QuackGuru (talk) 09:38, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        You're avoiding my point. Do you think that Alcohol (drug) should be moved to Ethanol (drug)? Rreagan007 (talk) 14:03, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        See Alcohol (medicine) Alcohol (drug). Both use the same name in the title. The only difference is medicine versus drug. Whenever possible we should use the same name in the title to avoid confusion. QuackGuru (talk) 17:49, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        Medicine is a drug, so that's potentially confusing too. And alcohol (medicine) isn't just about ethyl alcohol used as medicine, but all alcohols that are used in medicine. But ethanol and alcohol (drug) are actually about the same chemical compound, so should one of them be moved based on your own logic for this proposed move? Rreagan007 (talk) 18:46, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        See "Alcohol, also known by its chemical name ethanol,.." Based on that I would not change it. The scholar articles used in this article mostly use the term Epinephrine. Changing the title to Epinephrine won't be potentially confusing. I wikilink to epinephrine and use the term epinephrine when it is about the hormone. QuackGuru (talk) 19:20, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        Ok good, so then you agree with me that not every article about the same chemical compound has to have the same title. Now we can just argue over if it makes sense to do so in this specific case. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:28, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        As long as it can cause confusion I proposed the name be changed to epinephrine. I don't want anyone to think they are chemically different. QuackGuru (talk) 20:34, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        Well if they weren't different in some way, we wouldn't have two different articles. And the current situation doesn't seem any more confusing than having articles titled "ethanol" and "alcohol (drug)". Rreagan007 (talk) 22:01, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        The chemical structure for both are identical. The same structural image is being used on both articles. Yet, we are treating them as if they are somehow different chemically by using different names. QuackGuru (talk) 22:10, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        The chemical structure of ethanol and alcohol (drug) are also identical, yet you are okay with those articles having different names. The fact that the articles have different names in no way implies that they are somehow different chemically. Rreagan007 (talk) 23:12, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        This article is not clear what the difference is between the different names of Adrenaline and Epinephrine. Thus, there is a need for a name change. QuackGuru (talk) 23:20, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
        I thought you said there was no difference, just two names for the same thing. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:15, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Oppose per RReagan007. It doesn't seem unreasonable at all that the hormone and the medication might go by different names. If there's confusion, it can be cleared up in the lede. Per above, the discussion at the Wikiproject seemed to be along the lines of "the common name is adrenaline but specialty sources usually use epinephrine" which would seem to be a WP:COMMONNAME argument for the status quo. SnowFire (talk) 04:15, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
- There is no benefit to anyone to initially cause confusion with two different names. You said in part: "Just file a RM and wait 7 days, if there's a consensus, it'll be moved then." QuackGuru (talk) 09:34, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
  - Not using the common name would cause more confusion. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:44, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Support for consistency with norepinephrine and the fairly comparable usage pattern from the google search data below. I think it's absurd to have discordant page names for norepinephrine/noradrenaline and epinephrine/adrenaline. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 04:41, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
- We could just as easily move norepinephrine to noradrenaline to be consistent with this article. Rreagan007 (talk) 05:24, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
  - I'd be fine with that, but I doubt there will be consensus to move it. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 05:48, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Comment regarding worldwide google search data: Per the breakdown by region tab the US and PR apparently search the term "epinephrine" slightly more often than "adrenaline"; New Zealand and Canada are the opposite - both 40:60 epinephrine to adrenaline, the UK and Australia almost entirely search "adrenaline". That was filtered by science-related searches to filter out crap like Adrenaline_(disambiguation) that are also searched on google with queries containing the term "adrenaline". This data doesn't point to a clear common name in English-speaking countries based upon the usage frequency of these terms in searches. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 04:41, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Oppose move because "surge of adrenaline" and many other common uses for the hormone, while there is heavy use of "epinephrine" when referring to the medication. As an aside, I enjoy highlighting the differences, and also the similarities etymologically - many medical trainees (medical students and residents) say that they haven't considered the roots of the words in parallel until asked about them. Also btw, isn't this WP in all its glory? The positions have nearly identical substance to them; I think I'll pause this movie and come back to it in a year when the whole thing will play out again (whatever decision is made this week). — soupvector (talk) 04:17, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Oppose on the strength of the arguments around the colloquial/lay use of adrenaline. Notes for closer: as a UK-based editor I probably have a local confirmation bias. Also, though not an impacting factor on my !vote, QuackGuru and I have had prior (civil) disagreements. Little pob (talk) 11:09, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Keep hormone at adrenaline, move medication to epinephrine to match common usage. We also use surge of adrenaline in Canada User:Little pob Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:06, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Oppose. The common name of the hormone is most definitely adrenaline. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:04, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Oppose rename of hormone page to Epinephrine; the widely known name of the hormone is Adrenaline. --R. S. Shaw (talk) 19:48, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merger proposal

I propose to merge Epinephrine (medication) into Adrenaline. Both articles discuss the exact same chemical compound. It appears the articles were split into two after this brief discussion in 2016. I think that the content in the "Epinephrine (medication)" article can easily be explained in the context of the "Adrenaline" article, and the "Adrenaline" article is of a reasonable size that - once duplicated content is removed - the merging of "Epinephrine (medication)" will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned. Kwekubo (talk) 15:08, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

The current state does not serve readers well. Both articles are pretty big, so combining them would effectively obscure relevant information from readers. I think the names of the articles is the issue. They should both use the same term. Perhaps Epinephrine and Epinephrine as medication or Adrenaline and Adrenaline as medication? --Nessie (talk) 20:22, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Paging @Doc James, Rod57, and Don Cuan: from the original discussion. --Nessie (talk) 20:26, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Agree with Nessie that it's the names, and not the articles that are at issue. Compare Vasopressin (medication) to Vasopressin, Hydrocortisone to cortisol, testosterone to testosterone (medication), or for one that is combined see cortisone. Imo, it should be "Adrenaline" renamed to "Epinephrine (medication)" as the convention seems to be to use the generic name with (medication) after it. Ian Furst (talk) 20:45, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Note that adrenaline and epinephrine are both generic names. --Kwekubo (talk) 05:48, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Appears Epinephrine is the rINN.[3] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:49, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Moved to "~~Adrenaline (medicine)~~" Epinephrine as that is the INN. No benefit to merging IMO. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:12, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Abstain My main concern back then was this article's name. However, I see some benefit in the split, regarding article length and clarity. Don Cuan (talk) 13:28, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
No merge : I think merging would be a very bad idea as there are different conventions and standards for articles on natural and medical compounds. I preferred the recent naming : Epinephrine (medication) & Adrenaline since both could link to the other. - Rod57 (talk) 13:56, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Hum you are right Epinephrine is the INN. Moving back. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:49, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

So move adrenaline to Epinephrine (medication) because it's the INN? Ian Furst (talk) 19:35, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Well the article adrenaline is about the biological substance. I am not sure what the policies are around biological substances.

For medical substances our policy is to us the INN. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:30, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

No merge This discussion seems old, but the tag is still up, so here's my $(2/100). I don't think that this article should be merged because one is purely talking about epinephrine as a hormone while the other talks about the medication that is perhaps most well known for managing anaphylaxis. If this article lacked much content, I would support merging it, but both articles are substantial in content. Merging the two in question would be like merging Lithium (medication) and Lithium or merging Nitroglycerin (medication) and Nitroglycerin. William2001^(talk) 00:51, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Merge This article is too short to require a WP:SPLIT of the medication content on the basis of the relevant content guideline: WP:LENGTH. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 05:03, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
Oppose merge. A merge would cause confusion. QuackGuru (talk) 13:27, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
Oppose merge as the hormone and medication are useful as separate pages, and their names commonly differ - that's just how this works. — soupvector (talk) 21:55, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Oppose merge. The reader is best served by separate articles since a particular reader at a particular time is most likely to be seeking knowledge about the hormone in the body or the medical use of the compound. There is much to be said about both and the articles are already long enough. --R. S. Shaw (talk) 00:27, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Oppose merge. Having two separate articles makes sense in this case. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:10, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Due to the page move, this is now a moot issue. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 18:59, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

@Doc James: If the INN of adrenaline is epinephrine, this article is located at the wrong page title unless there's a clear consensus to deviate from the norm. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 05:09, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

@Doc James: Also, unless the majority of the ~~~2000~~ 1857 backlinks in the article namespace at Special:Whatlinkshere/Epinephrine are retargeted to this article, the target of that redirect should be remain here. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 05:23, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Just what does "the page move" in the box headline refer to? Is this box currently relevant? --R. S. Shaw (talk) 00:27, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

This article was moved prior to the page move discussion on this talk page. It was moved back after there was disagreement and a page move discussion unused.. QuackGuru (talk) 00:56, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

If this is moot, it should be closed and {mergefrom} removed from article. --R. S. Shaw (talk) 00:27, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

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Society and culture section

Looking at the society and culture sections they seem to be stubs of articles and the two paragraphs there don't seem to add much to knowledge of adrenaline. In Vita Veritas (talk) 18:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Ball and stick model

The nitrogen shows an extra hydrogen.

That's because it's a zwitterion in the crystal structure. A proton from an ROH group is transferred to the R₂NH group leaving RO⁻ and R₂NH₂⁺ groups. The image description page at File:Adrenaline-from-xtal-3D-bs-17.png has the literature reference: Acta Chem. Scand. (1975), 29b, 239-244. The full text is free to read. --Ben (talk) 23:04, 11 July 2021 (UTC)