Talk:Adolf von Deines/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Johannes Schade (talk · contribs) 17:18, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Good day User:Evansknight, if I may call you so. I propose to review your GA nomination "Adolf von Deines". Admittedly, I am only an apprentice-reviewer, whereas you are an experienced wikipedian who has made important contributions to many articles. I must also warn you that my English is 2nd language and that I am no subject-matter expert. I will propose corrections and suggest optional improvements. The corrections rely on the GA criteria (WP:GACR). Some are tentative. Please tell me when you disagree with a correction. I am probably wrong. You can ignore my suggestions. They have no effect on the article's promotion. Should I lack in respect, complain (see WP:CIVIL). You can have me banned.

I start a first traverse.

Before the article content

• Optional. Please add a {{Short description}} on top of the article.

• Optional. Please add the chosen English variety – The reader might expect {{Use British English}} or {{Use American English}}

• Optional. Please add the chosen date format. – The reader might expect {{Use dmy dates}} or {{Use mdy dates}}

—With thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 17:18, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Infobox

• Optional. The infobox is long and sandwiches text between itself and the image of the battle of Gravelotte. However, MOS:SANDWICH is not enforced in the GACR and you may chose to ignore this problem for now.

Lead

• Your lead is a single sentence. GACR Rule 1b prescribes compliance with MOS:LEAD SECTION of which MOS:LEADLENGTH is a part. This latter rule prescribes that the lead should be "a short, but useful and complete, summary of the topic". Additionally, in terms of numeric length it states that an article with less than 15000 characters (your case) should consist of 1 or 2 paragraphs. Therefore, please expand your lead so that it adequately summarises your article.

• Your lead sentence is followed by a citation. GACR Rule 1b prescribes compliance with MOS:LEAD SECTION of which MOS:LEADCITE is a part. This latter rule prescribes that the lead should normally not comprise citations as it should be a summary. Statements of the lead will be supported by citations in the body where more detail is given.

Early life

• Optional. Adolf was born on 30 May 1845 in Hanau. This should have been said in this first body section, but is not there. We have to glean the fact from the lead and the infobox. I would recommend: start with his birth when and where, say he was the eldest son, then give the names of his father and mother. As his grandfather was enobled in 1847, his father's name should at the occasion of Deines's birth be without the "Ritter von". Then give further family background on the fathers's and the mother's side. Then might be the right place to explain his grandfather's ennoblement. Perhaps give some detail about why his father was ennobled and by whom. Give all fact in chronological order as far as possible. I feel that most of the facts stated in section "Family" at the end of the article should be moved into their chronological places as most evnets are well dated. The dichotomy into and sections "Life" and "Family" then loses its raison d'êtr. se MOS:CHRONOLOGICAL.
  • I have done away with the Family section and incorporated the information therein into the Early Life section, and put the information on his marriage in a chronologically appropriate location as well.

—Thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 20:17, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Early life (continued)

• Only paragraph, 1st sentence: ... Hanau ... – GACR Rule 1a "understanding"; link "Hanau" at it first occurrence in the body.
  • Done.

• Only paragraph, 5th sentence: A stipulation in his father's will ... – GACR Rule 1a "understanding"; this might be confusing for the reader. His father died only in 1901.
  • I realize that this may be confusing, but it is nevertheless accurate. In order to be eligible to inherit his family's estates, he was required by a stipulation in his father's will (written early in his father's life, as is often the case for wealthy families in which land is a primary holding) to pursue a career in farming and land management. This was later amended when his military career took an upward swing, but I'm not sure how much more clearly it can be stated.

• Only paragraph, 8th sentence: ... The King's Own ... – GACR Rule 1a "understanding"; This might be misleading. While "The King's Own" is the English equivalent, it is very far from the German name: "Husaren-Regiment „König Wilhelm I.“ (1. Rheinisches) Nr. 7". There is a German article on the regiment, which might be linked using {{Ill}}.
  • I concur with this, and have changed it back to the German naming convention.

• Only paragraph, 8th sentence: ... Second Lieutenant ... – GACR Rule 1a "understanding"; this might be confusing as the article Second Lieutenant does not mention Germany. The cited source ("Soldatisches Führertum") does not seem to be accessible on the Internet. There is an article Leutnant. Was that his rank at the time?
  • If you look at the History section for Leutnant#History, you will see the following sentence "In the 18th and 19th century, at the unit level several Leutnants served as platoon leaders. At that time the ranks of Premier-Lieutenant and Seconde-Lieutenant came into existence. With effect from January 1, 1899, in the German Empire these ranks were renamed as Oberleutnant and Leutnant." I will amend this text to reflect the 19th century spelling and link it to the correct article for Leutnant.

• Only paragraph, 9th sentence: Deines was changed ... – GACR Rule 1a "understanding"; "changed" might mean many things. Perhaps you can find a more precise verb that nevertheless is supported by the source?
  • I went back to the source for a clearer phrase. Thank you.

— Thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 05:20, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Early life (continued 2nd time)

• Should not this section have mentioned that Hanau, at the time of his birth was part of the Electorate of Hesse, a sovereign state, part of the German Confederation.

• Should not this section have mentioned that Deines was brought up as a Protestant (I do not know whether he was Lutheran or Calvinist)?
  • I'm actually not sure how to answer this question. The church that his family belonged to in Hanau belongs to the "Hanauer Union" which appears to be a denomination that combines BOTH the Lutheran and Evangelical-calvinist churches, but there is not and English equivalent to this phenomenon and no English language sources (that I can find) that adequately explain it as a denomination.
    • Dear User:Evansknight; thank you for your reply. I admire the depth of your expertise. Indeed. The German Wikipedia has an article about the "Hanauer Union". This union must have been carried over in another corresponding union that applied in the Landgraviate of Hesse-Kassel, when the County of Hanau was absorbed by Hesse-Cassel in 1736, and then in 1866 into that of Prussia on which there is an English Wikipedia article: "Prussian Union of Churches". It shows that with regards to religion Deines fitted well into the Prussian state. A Catholic would have been less wellcome and certainly not trusted with the education of Princes. I leave it to you how much if anything at all you want to say about this in the article. It is not needed for GA. Thanks again for patiently explaining it to me. Johannes Schade (talk) 08:44, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• Should not this section have mentioned the Austro–Prussian War, which ended with the Electorate of Hessia being annexed by Prussia. This opened a Prussian career for Deines.
  • I plan on including this, I'm just trying to figure out a smooth way to insert it into the text. I also need to update the information about the family's ennoblement. As I've been rereading the Lebensbild in greater detail, there is a story about Deines's grandfather during the War of the Sixth Coalition in which he performed a service for the Bavarian/Austrian forces at the battle of Hanau involving letting them use his family's land to sneak attack the French forces. Despite them still losing the battle, he was given the Order of Leopold (Austria) by (I presume) Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor, and this is what led to the family's eventual adoption of the nobiliary particle von. I will transcribe the relevant section this weekend and send it to you so you can verify that my understanding of the events are correct.

— Thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 13:28, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Military career

• Only paragraph, 2nd sentence: ... ordnance officer ... - Quite surely a mistranslation of "Ordonnanzoffizier" for which there is a German Wikipedia article. The Ordonnanzoffizier is a Leutnant or Hauptmann given as an aide to a highranking officer.
  • I fixed this and linked it to the appropriate English-language article

— Thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 21:05, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Military career (revisited)

• This section should be reordered to narrate the events in strict chronological order, which I understand to be (as far as I think I know): with the 7th Hussars under von Loe, Gravelotte, Metz, Amiens, Hallue, with the South Army staff under Manteuffel in 1871. Manteuffel handed the command of the 1st Army over to Goeben on 8 Jan 1871 (https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=oFkRAAAAYAAJ&pg=GBS.PA276).

• Only paragraph, 1st sentence: ... saw combat at the battles of Gravelotte, Amiens, and Hallue. - GACR Rule 1a "understanding"; I would interpret "Saw combat" as being fighting with the troops at all three of these battles (all in 1870; Gravelotte: 18 Aug; Amiens: 27 Nov; Hallue: 24 Dec. But was this really so? He seems to have been mainly at the staff as Ordonnanzoffizier. Edwin von Manteuffel was commanding the Prussian 1st Army in all three battles. Whose Ordonnanz was he? Manteuffel's?
  • per Witzleben, supported by quotes from Deines’ own correspondence during the time, he was present at Gravelotte as part of the Hussars, and was appointed Manteuffel’s personal ordonnanz on the 1st of November. As such, he was present at the Amiens and Hallue in that capacity. You are right and I’m not sure that means he saw active combat in those battles.
    • Dear Evansknight. Yes this is also mentioned in "https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=oFkRAAAAYAAJ" on page 221, which says "Seit dem 1. November war Lieutenant v. Deines als Ordonnanz-Offizier zum Ober-Kommando der I. Armee abfommandirt." So, in 1870, Deines served with his 7th Hussars at Gravelotte and then at the siege of Metz but was then tranfered or seconded to the staff of the 1st Prussian Army and became ordonnanz of the General Manteuffel.

• Only paragraph, 2nd sentence: Following the siege of Metz ... - GACR Rule 1a "understanding"; We seem to jump backwards in time here as the siege of Metz was 19-27 Oct 1870.

• Only paragraph, 5th sentence: ... mange ... - GACR Rule 1a "spelling"; mange -> manage
  • Done

• Only paragraph, last sentence: ... actively excavated ... - GACR Rule 1a "concise"; "actively" is needless. "excavated" is enough.
  • Done

—Dear Evansknight, I have to ask you for some days off. I will be absent from the 27 to the 30 June, but will then continue the review. I would like to read some of the sources you cite. By chance I found the book written by Deines "Das König's Husarenregiment ..." at https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=oFkRAAAAYAAJ. Could you give me the other ones that you know? With many thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 13:59, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello dear User:Evansknight. I am back and ready for some more work on this review with you. Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 11:24, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Military career (revisited again)

• Only paragraph, 1st sentence: ... saw combat at the battles of Gravelotte, Amiens, and Battle of Hallue. - GACR Rule 1a "understanding". The formulation "and Hallue" suggests that Hallue is a town. There is no such town. Hallue or L'Hallue is a river. This becomes clear when you read the corresponding French article who is rich in details. "Battle of Hallue River" is an existing redirect of the Battle of Hallue. I propose to use this name in order to be clearer.

—Dear Evansknight. I am reading Deines's book about the history of the 7th Hussars. It seems that most of the essentials about Deines's experiences during the war 1870/71 can be found and cited there (if you can read the German, of course). Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 11:42, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

• • Sadly my German is the most basic level, so it will take me some time to sit and translate the appropriate chapters of that book, but I am certainly willing to do it. Thank you for sending me the link, I was hoping to be able to read that book, and the one physical copy I have found for sale is prohibitively expensive.

Early life and family

• Only paragraph, 1st sentence: Deines was born in 1845 in Hanau ... - GACR Rule 1b "guidelines for the lead section". This description of his birth omits the day and month. You cannot give less detail in the body than what you give in the lead. Either just repeat the full date or move the day and month here and omit them in the lead so that the lead gives less detail than the body.
  • Done

Optional *Only paragraph, 2nd sentence: ... (1818-1901) ... - MOS:RANGE - year ranges should use an en-dash, not a hyphen. In theory this is optional in GA but please just do it. Anybody will come along and correct you. It is considered a basic rule in Wikipedia.

• • Done

Optional *Only paragraph, 2nd sentence, 1st citation: Example text - GACR Rule 2 "guidelines for the lead section". No page given. The page is 136. The URL for the page is https://orka.bibliothek.uni-kassel.de/viewer/fullscreen/1568028714368/152/. This page gives the birth date and place of the biographical subject. Why did you give /155? This seems wrong.

• I didn’t realize the url in the citation was attached to a specific page, I meant to link to the title page. Since I reference the same book multiple times and different citations refer to different pages, it made more sense to cite the book as a whole because I’m not sure how to specifically cite the individual pages without splitting the citation in the references section. Is it possible to do so?
  • Dear Evansknight, surely you are aware of the various citation styles accepted in Wikipedia. See WP:CITE. If you want to include page URLs, I would recommend short citations (see WP:SFN).
    • I'm actually still learning about the different citation styles, thank you for reminding me to do more in-depth research. I have updated the URL in the citation to take the reader to the cover page of the book rather than a specific content page.

—Dear Evansknight, best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 20:18, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Early life and family (revisited)

• The single paragraph of this section is rather long. I wondered whether it would not be good to start a new paragraph at "Deines' mother ..." (should this not be Deines's?).

• Optional. Only paragraph, 1st sentence: Deines was born on 30 May 1845 in Hanau ... - MOS:Date. The style of this date does not comply with the mdy (American) style you chose. This might be my mistake. I am used to British English.
  • Done.
• Only paragraph, 4th sentence: In addition to managing his family's estates in Hanau ... - GACR Rule 1a "understanding". The formulation "estates in Hanau" seems to suggest that he had estates inside the town of Hanau. Were not his estates agricultural land? Did you mean the Landkreis Hanau?
  • I removed "in Hanau." I think it's clearer and more accurate to simply say "estates."
• Only paragraph, 4th sentence: In addition to managing ... in the Hessian municipal parliament from 1868 to 1885. - GACR Rule 1a "understanding". This seems to translate the "Kommunallandtag Kassel", which was a local assembly that provided popular representation at the level of the "Regierungsbezirk Kassel" (district) of the Prussian Province of Hesse-Nassau.
  • Done.
• Only paragraph, 4th sentence: In addition to managing ... Ludwig represented his district ... - GACR Rule 1a "understanding". He might have represented the Landkreis Hanau. Say so if you are sure, otherwise rather use "constituency" or "ward". The term "district" might be understood to refer either to the Landkreis or to the entire Regierungsbezirk.
  • I restructured the sentence that introduces this fact and I think it is now clearer and more concise.
• Only paragraph, 4th sentence: In addition to managing ... and Alexis, Landgrave of Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld ... - GACR Rule 1a "understanding". Perhaps "and stood in for Alexis ... during his absences"? But is it worthwhile introducung this gentleman with the long name? He is never mentioned again.
  • The German article states the following " in den Jahren 1868 bis 1885 – mit Unterbrechungen – Vertreter des Abgeordneten Landgrafen Alexis von Hessen-Philippsthal-Barchfeld im Kurhessischen Kommunallandtag." Please let me know if my new approximation of the translation is more accurate.

—Dear Evansknight, with thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 10:15, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Infobox (revisited)

• Optional. The infobox is still too long. I see that you moved the image of the battle of Gravelotte down to avoid sandwiching the text. However, this image is now far from the text to which is belongs. I think the following items on the infobox should be dropped:

1. Awards
2. Alma mater
3. Relations
4. German military attaché in Madrid
5. German military attaché in Vienna

The last two could be replaced with {{succession box}}es. See Charles MacCarthy, 1st Viscount Muskerry for an example.

• • Done

Lead (revisited)

• Optional. 1st paragraph, only sentence: Johann ... (30 May 1845 – 17 November 1911) ... - MOS:Date The style of the date range does not comply with the mdy (American) style you chose. I suppose it should be: (March 30, 1845 – November 17, 1911).
  • Done

• Optional. 2nd paragraph, last sentence: Johann ... ivory tower ... - GACR Rule 1a "understanding". The term "ivory tower" might not be well chosen. It usually refers to academic environments that have lost contact with the reality.
  • I'm on the fence about this one, because based on the sources I could find, the explicit goal of establishing the Prinzenschule was to educate the princes alongside commoners in a healthy and physically challenging environment, in contrast to the fawning sycophants at the traditional court schools. Indeed, Deines's common background and his university education are cited as the very reasons for his appointment. So it seemed like an appropriate description of the prior form of courtly education. But I have been thinking bout it and hopefully will arrive at a more accurate description.

Early life and family (revisited 2nd time)

• Optional. 1st paragraph, 1st sentence: Deines was born on May 30, 1845 in Hanau ... - MOS:DATE says with regard to the mdy style "a comma follows the year unless other punctuation obviates it." Therefore, please insert a comma.
  • Done

• 1st paragraph, 1st sentence: Deines was born ... in Hanau, in the Electorate of Hesse. – GACR Rule 1a "concise"; either shorten to "in Hanau, Electorate of Hesse" or elaborate: "in Hanau, then in the Electorate of Hesse."
  • Done

• Optional. 1st paragraph, 2nd sentence, 1st citation: Example text - The GACR do not prescribe pages. However, why should a nominator withhold page numbers forcing the reviewer to search. Indeed, a different page normally is a separate, different citation. You might group some consecutive pages together. In your present citation style, people often give the full source description only the first time and then simplify to author, year, and page.
  • I see where you’re coming from, and this is going to be a much more substantial reformat than most other changes so it will take me some time. Citation format has been the trickiest part of editing for me thus far.

• Optional. 1st paragraph, 4th sentence: In addition to ... Ludwig Deines acted as the occasional representative of Alexis ... in the Kurhessischer ... - – GACR Rule 1a "concise"; I propose "stood occasionally in for ... in his capacity as deputy in the Kurhessischer ...". I prefer "stood in" over "acted as representative" because of conciseness. I find it is necessary to clarify that Ludwig replaced him only in his capacity of deputy in this local assembly and would prefer "Kassel" over "Kurhessischer" as this was after 1866 and Kurhessen did not exist any more, even if the name lingered on. The article in the German Wikipedia is called "Kommunallandtag Kassel". There is also a "Liste der Mitglieder des Kommunallandtages Kassel". This list contains Ludwig Deines and Alexis, suggesting that even if Ludwig stood occasionally in for Alexis, he was also a deputy in his own right. You cite Lengemann (1996); have you been able to read this article?

• 1st paragraph, 5th sentence: Although he turned down ... Ludwig served on the Hanau District Council - GACR Rule 1a "understanding". What does "Hanau District Council" mean? This lacks precision and is not understandable. What does the source (Lengemann) say or where does this information come from?
  • The original German is "Kreistages Hanau" and that was how it was translated to me.

• Optional. 1st paragraph, penultimate sentence: Deines' paternal grandfather was ... – Please change to "Deines's paternal grandfather was ..." Please standardise on "Deines's" instead of "Deines'" for the genetive of the name.
  • Done

• 1st paragraph, penultimate sentence: ... Geheimer Finanzrat or Finance Minister ... – GACR Rule 1a "understanding". Are you sure he was Finance minister? The German article "Karl Ledderhose" has a frame with a list of the finance ministers of the Electorate of Hesse where he does not appear. The "Geheime Rat" is the Elector's privy council. That is more or less what the German article "Geheimer Rat" says. Otherwise, the "Geheime Rat" might just have been abused as a honorific title that did not mean much.
  • You are right. I was basing that titles on the information provided at [1], which would appear to be uncorroborated by that chart.
• 1st paragraph, last sentence: It was for Johann's service to the state that the family was ennobled. – GACR Rule 1a "understanding". I suppose the "state" is the Electorate of Hesse. Is that what the source says? The German article "Johann Michael von Deines" says "österreichischer Adels- und Ritterstand". Most likely the Austrian nobility was used because the Hessian Elector did not have the right to ennoblement, so he may have asked Austria to do it for him. Austria was of course part of the German Confederation. See the German article "Deutscher Adel". This is only my guesswork. Perhaps it happened differently. The essential is what the source says. I am not sure whether it is necessary to explain this to the reader.
  • If you look at my comment above, the Lebensbild explains how this came about, and is has to do with Johann Michael's service during the war against Napoleon, particularly at the battle of Hanau, but it is somewhat confusing for someone whose German is elementary. I meant to transcribe it this weekend but got distracted by other duties. I will make a point to do it this week.

• 2nd paragraph, last sentence: The surgeon Georg Ledderhose, first discovered glucosamine, was his first cousin. – GACR Rule 1a "grammar"; I think you mean "The surgeon Georg Ledderhose, who first discovered glucosamine, was his first cousin."
  • Done

—Thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 07:57, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Dear User:Evansknight. Thanks for shortening the infobox and adding the succession boxes. I find that looks better now.

Infobox (revisited 2nd time)

• Replace "Battle of Hallue" with "Battle of the Hallue" to help the reader understand that the Hallue is a river.
  • Done

Lead (revisited 2nd time)

• Optional. 2nd paragraph, last sentence: Johann ... ivory tower ... - GACR Rule 1a "understanding". I feel you misunderstood me. I only take exception with the term "ivory tower", not anything else you say about the Prinzenschule or the previous model of education of Prussian princes.The term "ivory tower" might not be well chosen. It usually refers to academic environments that have lost contact with the reality.
  • Understood, I have changed the wording accordingly and I believe this still captures the spirit of what I am trying to say.
    • Bravo! I think this is much improved.

Early life and family (revisited 3rd time)

• 1st paragraph, penultimate sentence: ... District Council ... – GACR Rule 1a "understanding"; Please use the German "Kreistag" in parallel with "District Council" to eliminate the possible confusion with the Kummunallandtag or the Provinziallandtag.
  • Done

Education

• Do not forget to insert a paragraph (or section) about the Austro–Prussian war of 1866, the last Elector's, Frederick William's, choice to side with Austria, and the resulting annecation of the Electorate of Hesse. this made Deines a Prussian and opened him a career in the Prussian army.
  • I am working on a paragraph about the family ennoblement and its relationship to previous wars to make it fit better as p[art of the section. I will keep you apprised when I have been able to finish it.

Political career

• Only paragraph, 3rd sentence: ... Deines' background ... – Standardize on Deines's for the genetive.
  • Done
• Only paragraph, penultimate sentence: ... reports to the Wilhelm II .... – GACR Rule 1a "understanding"; without the article: "reports to Wilhelm II".
  • Done

—Thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 20:02, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Dear User:Evansknight. We have gone quite a way together but are still far from the end. I believe this has gone beyound what can be expected within the frameword of a GA review. Please continue with your work and resubmit for another GA review. There has been a lot of real improvement. Go on about your work about clarifying the annoblement and do not forget the important impact of 1866 on Deines's life. Without 1866 the article fails to addresses a main aspect of the topic (GACR 3a). I will fail this now. We might meet again, perhaps in reversed roles. With many thanks for your always good collaboration: it was a pleasure to work with you. Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 18:19, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much taking the time to work with me on this review. I am sorry the quality was so poor, I will endeavor to work harder on my articles in the future before submitting them for GA review now that I have a better understanding of what is required. It's frustrating because the people who review article quality for wikiprojects seem to be few and far between so many of my articles, despite executive rewriting and improvement, are still listed as Start-, Stub- or C-class articles, despite my best efforts. I learned a lot and hopefully this experience will increase my understanding of the requirements and the process. Evansknight (talk) 18:50, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Dear Evans, I would not bother too much about articles being rated Stub, Start, and C-class. Very few people care about upgrading such ratings when the article deserves it. B-class demands a citation at the end of each paragraph. Many GA and even FA articles do not comply. So my advice is to ignore all ratings before GA. You can well submit a nominal stub for GA if you are confident that it complies with the GACR. Prepare well for GA and things will be fine unless you get an unreasonably demanding reviewer. I hope I have not been that sort. Hope to meet you again. Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 20:37, 13 July 2022 (UTC)