Talk:Adel (name)

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Adel (important improvements)

Hello.

I have attempted to tweak this article to be more consistent and precise, but, "Thomas.W" insists that I open a discussion to state my case first. Very well.

My case is as follows:

1, although "Adel" is a given name, it is originally an ancient word/term that evolved, similar to heroic/glorious/regal/royal/majestic/kingly/queenly/princely, etc. collectively and of aristocracy. For example, "Prince Adel" (also known as King Adel II "Atharik" of Friesland) is more rather "Adel Atharik II" of Friesland, much like "Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II" of England or "Tsar Nicholas II" of Russia (the Romanov tsars). Obviously, if we agree that "Adel" (the given name) is a sobriquet for Atharik and his father, Friso, well, "Adel Adel II" or "King Adel II" is fine. "Friso" and "Atharik" are ancient given names; "adel" is more of a social rank, address, and/or noble title.

2, although "Friesland" is often synonymous with "Frisia", I strongly believe that "Frisia" is more appropriate, as it was the name of the kingdom at the time and denotes "Friso" (the legendary king of the "Frisians") after all.

3, a few ancient men with noble titles and some notable men today do not render the given name a "male" given name. Nobility is gender-neutral; "nobleman" and "noblewoman" are both recognised by Oxford and Cambridge (and every other dictionary). In fact, there are people all over the world named "Adel" from all walks of life, of both genders, and with different pronounciations. Take the notable "Adel de Meyer" (female entrepreneur and author) and "Dr. Adel G. Aiken" (female professor at Geneva College) for examples. Not to mention my neice and two women I met in college. "Adel" (/ˈadəl/) is a gender-neutral word/term for "noble" and the like. It is also a gender-neutral given name today.

4, "Adall" is masculine and derives from "aðall" (Old Norse for "noble man"), which derived from "adal" (Old High German for "heroic/legend/noble"). "Adalheidis" is feminine and derives from "aðall" and "heiðr" (Old Norse for "noble woman"), which derived from "haiduz" (Old High German for "beauty/manner/fertile"). "Heiðr" was a name given to seeresses and witches in Old Norse literature, and an epithet for good witches and a literary name for women. "Adall" (male) and "Adalheidis" (female) gave rise to "Adell" (/əˈdɛl/) and "Adelheid" (/ˈadəlhid/), which later gave rise to "Adelaide/Adélaïde" (/ˈadəleɪd/) and "Adelle/Adèlle/Adèle" (/əˈdɛl/).

5, in conjunction with my fourth point, "Adell" is no more or less an alternative spelling of "Adel" than "Adelle/Adele" are. Although "Adell" can be an alternative spelling of "Adel" (just like "Adall/Adoll/Adill" and "Adal/Adol/Adil"), it is respectably separate (much like "Adelle/Adele" and the Arabic "Adil"). With that said, "Adell/Adel" can also be alternative spellings of "Adelle/Adele". Human beings are very messy and inconsistent and have been through the ages, and all of these alternatives have caused confusion. It is actually very simple and consistent when you trace it back to its origins and break it down. Considering origins and usage today, it would be appropriate and accurate to mention and organise consistently, which I will publish soon for your convenience, improved from my previous uncompleted version.

6, in summary:

"Adel" is a gender-neutral given name, has two English pronounciations (one more like the northern-European pronounciation), has male and female alternatives that are not necessarily alternative spellings, is also a short form and/or nick name of similar names, derives from an Old High German word/term, evolved and became a name in Old Norse, can be simply summarised as ancient-northern-European, and was not necessarily the given name of four sequential kings of Frisia.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Versalex (talk) 09:19, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Versalex welcome to Wikipedia. Do you have reliable sources - IE: published scholarly works - that support your assertion? Wikipedia isn't a court and it's not a matter of making a compelling argument. Rather what you need to do if you wish to make changes is to demonstrate that somebody else, who can be considered reliable to hold an informed view on the subject, can be shown to have published said view. It can get argumentative talking over how to manage dissenting viewpoints, etc., but that's the basics. Simonm223 (talk) 13:48, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Simonm223. Roger that. Much of what I've stated is already on the page with links and references. I'll see what else I can find. Stand by. Versalex (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Removing incorrect information

Hello! Yesterday I edited this page to remove a lot of incorrect or unnecessary information, but another user restored the page and suggested I leave the question open for a few days to see what people think.

The article currently includes 20 different pronunciation playbacks, which seems way over the top. Surely one or two is enough for a fairly obscure name.

The article also conflates several unrelated names, resulting in an incorrect list of people bearing the name. The European/Germanic name "Adel" is not related to the Arabic name "Adil/Adel" (as the page for "Adil" itself notes) or the Hebrew name "Adiel." I want to remove the incorrect information and examples (all people of Middle Eastern/North African descent named Adil or Adel, as they should be listed on the page for Adil itself).

Also, the page includes several just plain weird variations on the name. If anyone can find a single example of someone named "Adeldaughter," I'll stand corrected, but until then I think some of these variations need to be deleted.

Let me know what you think! If no one responds in a few days I'll go ahead and make these changes. 50.255.144.29 (talk) 14:23, 7 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As per my comments at user talk, you have not demonstrated that the German version of the name is distinct from the North African one. Even if you did, it would not be appropriate to delete mention of the North African one. Frankly that's not how we do things here. Simonm223 (talk) 13:07, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, pinging DVdm - this page is low-priority enough that it's likely talk page conversations get missed, but they have also expressed dissatisfaction with your deletion when you attempted it before. Simonm223 (talk) 13:38, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand why you've reverted. The scope of this article was changed by Versalex last year, and is now a jumbled mess that includes Adil for some inexplicable reason. This removal is simply an attempt to clean it up and it just so happens to restore the status quo. —Xezbeth (talk) 13:54, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Arabic name Adil derives from the root 'ādil, meaning just or equitable. See:

Wehr, Hans, A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, 4th ed. by J. Milton Cowan (1979). (This link should open to the correct page, but the cite is on page 698 if it doesn't.)

Hawana, Samir A., "Naming in Arabic" (1977). Retrospective Theses and Dissertations. 82 at page 16.

The name is also listed on a lot of Arabic/Muslim baby name sites - obviously not scholarly sources, but they all give the meaning of the name in Arabic, Urdu, Hindi, etc. as "just." See HamariWeb, MuslimNames, UrduPoint, QuranicNames, and so on.

Additionally, the Arabic/Middle Eastern/North African name "Adil" does already have its own page - which lists some of the people currently listed under "Adel." The two names are not the same, and deleting the Arabic examples from the Germanic name page would not remove them from Wikipedia. They already have another page on which they belong. I'm perfectly willing to move all the names there myself. 50.255.144.29 (talk) 14:04, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

When people try to strip out ties between the etymology of North African and European words, I kind of want to see some evidence. Especially when the result is deleting any references to the non-European material. That raises all kinds of warning bells for me. Simonm223 (talk) 14:07, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have presented evidence. See above. The Arabic name Adil means just or equitable. The Germanic name Adel means noble or aristocratic (in the sense of family or land-holding, as the page itself notes). The two words mean different things. Adil already has its own page. I am not trying to delete that page. Adil will remain extant on Wikipedia. Its own page already says it is unrelated to the Germanic name Adel!

This is like insisting that the Maratha prince Nana Sahib had some etymological relation to the English slang "nana" for grandmother. The two words just don't mean the same thing. 50.255.144.29 (talk) 14:16, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Changes?

The discussion immediately above seems to have trailed off, but I don't want to leave this page in limbo. I've presented sources to support removing the "Adil" information from this page and transferring it to the pre-existing page for "Adil." Are there still any objections to this? Pinging DVdm, Simonm223, Xezbeth. 50.255.144.29 (talk) 15:23, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not intending to edit war over this though I'd be very cross unless all removed material is preserved somewhere within enwiki article space. Simonm223 (talk) 15:26, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Great, I'll do that. I'm also going to remove some of the superfluous pronunciation guides (many of which sound identical), and make the introduction to the article a little more concise, if that's OK. 50.255.144.29 (talk) 15:33, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Afaic, go ahead... - DVdm (talk) 06:58, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]