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Reviewer: Kusma (talk · contribs) 18:56, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Will take this one, even if my Swedish is pretty much nonexistent (while a trip to Helsinki ten years ago taught me that it is in better shape than my Finnish, this isn't saying much: all I have to offer is Germanic guessing). Crawl-In Tavern sounds like a fun place. —Kusma (talk) 18:56, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Though lying dead drunk in the gutter outside it may not have been quite as pleasant! ... thanks for taking this on. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:50, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Progress meter

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Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Overall comments

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A nice little article about an interesting song. I'll comment on some prose details later, but I think there's some content/broadness and structural issues to address first, so I'll start with some bigger issues. —Kusma (talk) 19:29, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • The comparison with "to be or not to be" kind of says this song should be known to almost every Swede. Or is it just the highly educated ones?
    • I guess the TBONTB applies specially to stage actors ... certainly they like to give it a go!
      • OK, I get the picture now. Is there more context to the quote to make that clearer in the article?
        • I think the "ample room for an entertainingly burlesque performance" gives a pretty good context. Britten Austin doesn't say more about it than is in the article.
  • The reception focuses very much on Lönnroth's interpretation. There must be other people talking about this. (From a quick search, are [1] [2] of any use? The second compares the structure of Ep 23 with a psalm, which may be relevant)
    • Added quite a bit from both of them; interesting! (I wasn't expecting to be taken to Aristotle's biology, another of my articles.)
      • Much better. I'm not sure the Aristotelian theory needs to be illustrated, which gives it extra weight; certainly some people (like the German translator here (free to read with an account)), seem not to focus on the "just" so much.
        • Have adjusted text. The German transla has attempted to preserve the rhyming scheme, possibly at the price of some of the meaning ("da ich in dich glitt" takes "ich" as the father(!!) when it certainly means Fredman); it seems he didn't guess the allusion to the centuries-old debate about how babies came about. I've added him to External links.
          • I'm not sure the "ich" of the German translation is the father, but it is strange. There is less of the fire ("brann" taking up the "uptände") of the original. If "ich" is the "blod"="manly seed" then it's still reasonably close. (Not my place to speculate on this, though).
            • Nor my place either, but "glitt" seems definitely off.
  • Reception: this section is a bit disjointed. Perhaps the recordings could be expanded and split out? There must also be more of these (see Performers section in Carl Michael Bellman)
    • Done. Per the item below, I've extended and reorganised the section.
      • OK, all different now :)
  • Context: isn't this where the writing in 1770 could be talked about? Mention that the real Fredman died in 1767? Do you need to talk about Ulla here? (She does make the description more colourful, but I don't see her as very relevant for this particular song) Austrian poet Rainer Maria Rilke liked her, though. (Ep. 23 is also mentioned here https://www.jstor.org/stable/30160265 but not very much in-depth.)
    • Dates added. I think the few words on Ulla give necessary context, both rough and romantic. Moved the song's date here. As it happens I've also added a description from Burman 2019 that compares Ulla with the blokes, so we definitely now need to mention her!
      • Fair enough.
  • Publication in 1790? Carl Michael Bellman has the songs and epistles the other way around?
    • 1790 is right; I've fixed the CMB article.
      • Thought it was like that, but wanted to double check.
  • Editorial history: compare also https://www.jstor.org/stable/40917410 (available on TWL), where some early prints are mentioned?
    • Added.
  • Generally, I think you could mention a bit more of things stated in Fredmans epistlar.
    • Well, I wrote that article too. I've tried to avoid too much overlap, linking it and providing a short synopsis in the Context section. Happy to add anything you think is specifically needed here; reading it again, it seems to make the main contextual points clearly enough.
      • I think you need just a little extra (which should also improve the flow in places). I'll make some more detailed suggestions in a bit.

Comments on some of the GA criteria

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  • Images are fine, all free and relevant. Very nice that you have a MIDI. Your reproduction of the musical notation is better than the one here, but it might still be worth linking to the complete version.
    • Thanks!
  • Not copyvio in an obvious way.
    • Noted.
  • Stable (single author article).
    • Noted.
  • Will go through the article section by section (but lead section last) for prose/focus/broadness and anything else I notice.

Context section

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  • the central figure of Swedish song someone not reading this in context could give that crown to that Björn & Benny instead. The Bellman article's a central figure in the Swedish song tradition and remains a powerful influence in Swedish music seems more precise, perhaps you could try a variation of that.
    • Ah, recentism, the curse of modern life and Wikipedia. Done.
      • Good. The existence of a sv:Bellmansdagen does confirm that he is still quite relevant.
  • Perhaps you could give us a sentence about where the writing of the song fits into Bellman's biography. Is there a reason they were only collected 20 years later?
    • Poverty, and the sheer difficulty of publication.
  • Did Bellman perform solo?
    • Always.
      • Thanks for adding this in. I was confused by the different instruments used in the epistles, so I thought I'd check.
  • Jean Fredman (1712 or 1713 – 1767) is a fictional character These are the birth and death of real Fredman, not (as you note later) of the fictional Fredman. Perhaps sort this better? Mention the real person first, then explain how the halvfiktiva figur Fredman (as sv:Jean Fredman says) is based on him?
    • Done.
      • Much better.
  • I find it amusing that Fredmans epistlar#Cast of characters describes lying in the gutter as some sort of initiation ritual for the Bacchi Orden. Is this important here?
    • Mentioned.
  • strong drink and beautiful "nymphs" like Ulla Winblad create a rococo picture of life ... harsh reality I think you're trying to say too much in one sentence here. We have wine/women/song, rococo, demimonde, classics, pastoral description and harsh reality together, leaving me a bit confused. As I understand it, these are the main features of Fredman's world, but the focus is different in each epistle?
    • Extended and reworded.
      • Much better. Now we are given a lively picture of this world.
  • Who is P.J. Hjelm? (gloss?) Is his "songbook" from 1770 or a later collection that just dates the song?
  • You could consider adding a picture of Bellman, but I understand if you find that repetitive between all the Bellman articles.
    • Yes, it'd be too much.
      • And you've got Bacchus now.
        • Yes, good suggestion.

Song

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  • The description is very factual and almost a bit dry, with the exception of graceful; is that what the sources say? Is there any source that discusses how music and text fit together? (Fredmans epistlar#Fitted to music advertises this feature in the general, without saying anything specific about 23).
    • Yes, it's in Britten Austin. However he doesn't analyse the music/text fit of this song, and nor does Massengale, except to mention that the flauto solo makes the task harder, not sure that'd help in the article.
  • The Lyrics section is one of my favourite parts of the article. I like how you use short quotes in a re-telling of the story of the song. Are these your own translations here? (If yes, I'm happy with that; if no, I'd like them to be better acknowledged in the citations).
Yes.
  • Given that you talk about the "just" in "Aristotelian inheritance", you may need the full sentence including that somewhere, but if it breaks the flow here, better put it in the other section.
Added. I'd had it in the section heading, where it didn't quite fit.
  • ... however, your citations could be more precise. Britten Austin (which I haven't read) is so long it could use page numbers.
Done.
  • ctrl-F for "tack" or "paul" in the Bellman society webpage also doesn't quite show me what you are referring to.
Rejigged the refs.
And now they look more convincing.
  • Swedish text should use {{lang|sv|(text)}} for accessibility
    • Done.
  • Before I forget it (probably will be offwiki for a few hours): s:sv:Sida:Fredmans Epistlar.djvu/75 is the Wikisource version
    • Added.

Reception

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  • When the epistle is performed, it is to the public's "delight" as a "masterpiece" source looks like this is one specific performance, so this is maybe a little strong? I don't quite see why it is semicolon'ed to Ringblom. But overall, the burlesque section gives a good picture of the enduring popularity.
    • Fixed the semicolon, just a typo. The "masterpiece" in the quote is the song, not the performance, and this certainly reflects the popular opinion of the song in Sweden.
  • I like the biblical section a lot.
    • Thank you.
  • I don't quite see why the Blomquist quote should be indented; essentially your style here is to indent most primary quotations and to have the secondary sources in running text.
    • OK, running it is.
  • girds up his loins are you citing Fredman, Lönnroth, or the Bible?
    • Clarified; that phrase is Biblical, while "omgjorda" alludes to it.
  • smorda should use {{lang|sv}}
    • Done.
  • Social realism: Lönnroth writes ... Lönnroth writes a bit repetitive. sees Bellman's approach to be grammar.
    • Edited.
  • I am now imagining Luther drinking with Bellman, and both having a great time :)
    • Perfect!
  • Aristotelian inheritance: Quite fascinating. I'm now happy with keeping the image. He wonders why "He" is Holmberg? (sv:Olle Holmberg, according to the preface?) Do you agree with Holmberg's description of the opinions of the people mentioned / do you need to mention Holmberg repeatedly or could some part of this be presented in wikivoice? (The connection to Fredman certainly needs to be ascribed to Holman, but the 17th/18th century scientific debate could be described not just from Holmberg's point of view).
    • Tweaked.
  • I agree with retitling, although some of the "burlesque" still is more "reception". Maybe "Reception and analysis"?
    • OK, separated them.
  • Swedish quote from Ep 27 needs formatting
    • Done.
  • as holding to an old-fashioned viewpoint "holding on to" or "holding an ..."?
    • Done.

Performances

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  • 1960 seems amazingly late for the first recording, but if your source is certain, let's assume it's true.
    • It seems to be so.
      • OK. I would advise against using this as a DYK factoid for the Main Page without independent confirmation, though.
  • The second half of the section isn't really "performances", it's more "legacy" or "modern traces" or something. Perhaps move this elsewhere or delete some parts of it (see item after next)? The tavern could (with some tweaks) fit into the "realism" section near the bit with real and fictional Fredman.
    • Deleted.
  • The sources for this second half are primary and not too great. The source for the students especially is a description for a course in classic Swedish literature at Gothenburg University, which of course tells students to read Bellman as one of the classics. It's not clear at all, though, that every course in Swedish classics would feature epistles 23, 33, and 81. As I understand it, this essentially just helps to strengthen some of the points made in the "Burlesque" section. You could consider removing the students or weaken the statement, which currently seems to imply that all students of Swedish literature have to study Epistle 23 at some point, a statement much stronger than the source.
    • Deleted.
      • Probably better, although the guided walks had a picture of the inside of Kryp-In.
        • Well we could have them as an Ext link, but people will probably suppose it's advertising...
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  • "Hassler" ref should be converted to {{sfn}}.
Done.
  • Page number for ref 10 (Hassler & Dahl) should be more precise
    • Done.
  • Some of the refs in Swedish should have a "lang=sv" or something added to warn the reader that they are in Swedish
    • Added.
  • Reference layout could be slightly more uniform, but I guess it's good enough.
    • Noted.
  • While looking through this: clicking "Kommentar" here connects Ep. 23 to Jeremiah 15:10, a connection not mentioned yet?
    • Added.
  • "Further reading": any reason not advertise but not use this book here? Is this the only English translation?
    • Removed.
  • External links: mention that the first two are in Swedish.
    • Done.

Enough for today, I'll look again tomorrow to comment on the lead. I think we're nearly done (and I think I'd like to go to Stockholm).

    • A pleasure to walk the streets of Gamla Stan with you.
      • Thanks for the virtual tour of Fredman's world. Now for some brännvin ...

Lead and second pass

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  • Lead: could benefit from some reorganisation I guess. For example History/setting/story, reception/importance/to be or not to be, themes and analysis.
    • Reworked.
  • The subtitle could fit neatly with explaining the setting and telling Fredman's story.
    • Haven't found a way to do that, as it is being used for the 'soliloquy' and 'to be or not to be' bit. But I've added a bit on the song's structure, which strengthens the story line.
  • I might like to be told that this is a 1770s, not 1790s song right away.
    • Hm, Fredman's Epistles is a 1790 publication, and the lead isn't the place to go into picky detail.
  • The Biblical connections probably deserve a full sentence mentioning one or two of the psalms & prophets. echoes, reflecting a Lutheran background is a bit too condensed.
    • Added.

Rest of the article:

  • Who is Helene Blomqvist? gloss? She is cited several times and might deserve moving to Sources and {{sfn}} treatment with page numbers, but that is optional.
    • Glossed.
  • References in Performances section: Do Swedes Use Title Case? I Don't Know But Germans Don't and I Hate It When German Texts Are Written Like This.
    • Fixed.

I guess that's all I have.

Many thanks for the review. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:19, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the article (I've learned a lot of interesting things), which I am happy to declare "Good" now. Thank you also for your tolerance of my nitpicking. —Kusma (talk) 09:37, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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