Talk:Abe ryū

The founder of Abe-ryu (安倍頼任) is descended from Abe-no-munetou, as described in the Japanese wikipedia page: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/安倍宗任. I couldn't find the pronunciation of the name: I guess it is Abe Noritake, but have not been able to find confirmation. If anyone can come up with either the full pronunciation or a citation in English, please add it. For the moment, I have added all the information I have Francis Bond (talk) 01:19, 21 April 2009 (UTC).

Abe Ryu - definition

Abe ryū can can not be kenjutsu when the founder of this school called the teaching for Kendo (剣道) in 1673. Abe's method of swordsmanship emphasized on mental and moral practice rather than physical techniques and in this way can not be kenjutsu! Please read the reference instead of delete these information. - Kontoreg (talk) 10:47, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

The point is not what name Abe used, but what the name should be in English: the info-box is designed for English users of wikipedia to understand what Abe-ryu is. Abe-ryu is not Kendo in the standard usage in Englsih, which is used to describe the martial art as it is described in the Wikipedia Kendo page. Instead it is a style of Kenjutsu. By using non-standard terms you are confusing people. The fact that Abe called his style Kendo is not the issue, no one disputes this and it is already clearly documented in the article. The current usage of Kendo is NOT however directly linked to Abe-ryu in any way, gekiken was renamed Kendo by DNBK in the early 20th century. Ueno, among others, clearly states this. Francis Bond (talk) 04:29, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

The point is that kendo is not kendo...Abe's kendo is not linked to the modern kendo I have never claimed that Abe's kendo is the forerunner to the modern kendo. It is your interpretation that Abe's kendo is kenjutsu. Abe defined his swordsmanship as 'Kendo' it is already clearly documented in this article. Besides you can read in this article: "There is no direct connection between this usage of the term kendō promoted after the Meiji Restoration." (the modern kendo). I know that DNBK renamed gekiken (also called 'gekken') in 1912 but gekiken is not linked to Abe's Kendo - gekiken is a part of the history connected to the modern kendo. - Kontoreg (talk) 11:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

No, that is not the point. The point is we are trying to explain to people what Abe-ryu is. Kenjutsu is the term used in modern Japanese and English to refer to old styles of swordmanship, which in those times were referred to by a variety of terms, with 兵法 probably being the most common term (see, e.g 日本の剣豪　isbn 4-01-071331-3). But we don't call old styles hyouhou as that is not the standard English term. I'm sorry that this is so hard for you to understand. In the same way, we don;t call Abe-ryu Kendo, because it is not Kendo. Francis Bond (talk) 02:12, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Here is a citation showing how Abe-ryu is referred to as Kenjutsu: [1] Francis Bond (talk) 02:30, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

The point in this discussion is that the founder of Abe was the the first Japanese who used the term Kendo to describe his teaching. This swordsmanship was not kenjutsu it was Kendo according to Abe. It is your your interpretation that Japanese swordsmanship is kenjutsu. You and other writers can claim that Abe's swordsmanship was kenjutsu but according to Abe himself it was Kendo. Copies and copies of that interpretation as you are using does not make the interpretation to a true history. - Kontoreg (talk) 10:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I didn't know about the historical figure and there are few pages found on the web. First of all, the kanji 立 seems to be ryū, not tate. Who says it's tate? The ref. #1 says "He started 円頓流/enryō-ryū in 1649 and changed the name 円立/enryū and then 安倍立. In 1667, he called his school kendo and wrote the book "安倍立剣道伝書". 立 can be read as ryū and it seems to me that he used 立 for 流. This translation says it's ryū. Though it's not a RS, there is a comment on this page saying "安倍頼任の剣道は、現代剣道ではなくて、そういう流派名でアリマス。" It means "Abe's kendo has nothing to do with the modern kendo, but that's the name of his school." And #2 at ja:剣道#注釈 says "Abe said kenjyutu was a means of everyday use and I called/named it kendo". Oda Mari (talk) 17:24, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Abe's teaching was not kenjutsu he called it kendo and has nothing to do with the modern kendo created after the Meiji Restoration. - Kontoreg (talk) 14:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The characters 剣道 had also been used earlier in China

To Ffbond, If you do not get a reference to the statement above I am forced to delete this statement from the article. - Kontoreg (talk) 12:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

The citation is Ueno, same as the sentence before. Francis Bond (talk) 01:07, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Can you explain the relevance for this article? - Kontoreg (talk) 19:55, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

We are discussing early uses of the term Kendo, therefore it is relevant. Francis Bond (talk) 02:13, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

No it is not relevant because we are discussing the used of the term Kendo in the Japanese swordsmanship. - Kontoreg (talk) 09:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)