Talk:Abe Greenthal

21 May 2015

This article presents major problems in terms of the alleged facts. In fact, the factual inaccuracies were what inspired the writing of Stop Thief!, which took over four years to research and write, including visits to archives in New York City; Trenton, New Jersey; Philadelphia and Harrisburg, Pennsylvania (nothing found in either archive); Gorzów Wielkopolski, Poland; and Recife and Rio de Janeiro, Brazil; Berlin, Germany. The Library of Congress also yielded valuable information. In addition, the archives in Albany, New York yielded a large amount of information, but inquiries in Liverpool, England, were not successful. As a result, several articles appeared in publications on how to do relevant research.02:45, 21 May 2015 (UTC) Someone has now much improved the content, although it could stand further changes. However, the improvements are misfootnoted. The source is the book, Stop Thief! The True Story of Abraham Greenthal ...Mr. Posen (talk) 17:30, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Further sources

Poor Cousins, by Ande Manners [1] p. 236. Snippet view at Google books cuts off mid-sentence. Book looks to be out of print. postdlf (talk) 19:28, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

The reference to Abraham Greenthal in Ande Manners’ book, Poor Cousins, p. 236, reads in full:

Mother Mandelbaum’s absence was felt, but there were other ganovim to carry on. There was Abe Greenthal, leader of the infamous Sheeny Gang, “acknowledged to be one of the most expert pickpockets in America,” who had delusions of grandeur so extraordinary that he not only called himself “General Greenthal,” but also, although born in Poland, claimed to be “a German.” ...

The last sentence is not attributed and is all wrong after the "delusions" reference. Greenthal was not born in Poland. At the time that he was born on 9 January 1822, the town in which he was born, Betsche, was in the Grand Duchy of Posen, which was in Prussia and not Poland. Indeed, Poland existed only in the form of the Republic of Kraków, which was swallowed up by the Austrian Empire in 1846 as a result of an uprising which the Austrians provoked. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Krak%C3%B3w Greenthal was called “The General” not from any delusions of grandeur but from his ability to keep his “soldiers” in line. See Saturday, 20 August 1859, Evening Post, New York, Vol. 58, No. 197, p. 2, col. 3, where he is recognized as the leader among his associates. The General was known as such because he kept his troops in line and did not take the sobriquet himself; it was awarded by his followers.73.129.214.54 (talk) 02:45, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Stop Thief! The True Story of Abraham Greenthal, King of the Pickpockets in 19th Century New York City, as Revealed from Contemporary Sources, ©2015 by Edward David Luft, Washington, DC, 166 pp. http://www.lbi.org/digibaeck/results/?qtype=pid&term=2928280 Published by the Leo Baeck Institute, New York City.Mr. Posen (talk) 13:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

It is difficult to understand why the author of the article, having himself found an error in the source (Robert A. Rockaway) upon which he relied, would nevertheless continue to rely on Rockaway for erroneous information presented as fact. Rockaway cannot cite his sources because his facts are erroneous and do not exist. The book, Stop Thief!, relies entirely upon original sources detailed in over 400 footnotes, all of them in contrast to Rockaway’s alleged facts. Stop Thief! is published by the Leo Baeck Institute, New York City, a prestigious foundation. Given the errors found in the Greenthal article and spot checks as to other articles relying upon Rockaway, caution is urged in using any other undocumented Rockaway citation as a reliable source.

As to being Polish, the Prussian authorities carefully noted the languages of all persons arrested. Many persons arrested in the general period when Abraham was first arrested and in the same files are listed as speaking Polish; Abraham is not among them per his arrest record. See Amtsblatt der königlichen Regierung zu Posen, Posen, Prussia, No. 21, 22 May 1838, p. 384. A portion of that notice reads [in German]: languages: German and Yiddish. Betsche, 18 May 1838. [signed] The city authorities. The General saw himself as German and not Polish; he had logic on his side for that. Like Bismarck in the Kulturkampf, which came later, The General bought into the notion that German culture was a higher culture than Polish culture.

Abraham gave an interview to an unidentified reporter for The Sun, the leading New York newspaper at the time although The New York Times was then rapidly rising in importance. The interview was entitled “A Most Influential Thief: What It Has Cost a Scoundrel to Keep Out of Prison,” Saturday, 7 October 1871, The Sun, New York, p. 3, cols. 1-2. Much of what is known about Abraham’s early life comes from this interview. The reporter wrote that Abraham was of Polish parentage. The statement that he was of Polish parents probably says more about the prejudices of the reporter and his readership than the truth about Abraham. Abraham was born in Betsche on 9 December 1822, the second child and eldest son of Isaac Hirsch LESLAUER of Betsche and Lea DAVID, born in Breslau. See Register of Jewish births, marriages, and deaths, 1817-1847, for Betsche, Posen, Germany; now Pszczew, Zielona Góra, Poland, held in the Zentralstelle für Genealogie, Leipzig, Germany, and on Family History Library [Mormon] microfilm 1335040, item 3, pp. 5-6. As documented in Stop Thief!, listed above, his family were career criminals. From some things that Abraham said in the interview, it seems a logical conclusion that Abraham bitterly resented his father's apprehension, prosecution, conviction, and imprisonment.

Because the Breslau Jewish marriage records for the period have not survived, even a trip to Wrocław, Poland, and a discussion with the city archivist, Maciej Łagiewski, who has expertise exactly on the Jews of this place and period, did not provide a copy of the record or of any other corroborative evidence. However, other events show that Abraham would have married Lea sometime between late 1849 and very early 1851.

When Greenthal immigrated to the United States, he was already a married man and came with his wife on the American ship Roscius, landing in New York City on 12 May 1851 with passengers Mr. and Mrs. A. Green. He is known to have used that alias on more than one occasion. See Saturday, 24 May 1851 The Irish-American, New York, Vol. III, No. 21, p. 3, col 2. The manifest itself is available on microfilm and online.

Although The General was not convicted in many of the cases brought against him, especially in New York City, he was also convicted, usually outside New York City (which was only Manhattan and part of the Bronx at the time) and spent about half his life in prison, both in the United States and in Prussia. He may also have been imprisoned in Pennsylvania, but efforts to verify that were not successful. He narrowly escaped the imprisonment in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, although his brother was not so fortunate and served five years at hard labor. References to his ever having been in Russia are without foundation and probably stem from a confusion between Russia and Prussia as well as a desire to believe that Germans were not criminals.

The General was not pardoned in 1884. Rather, this was a distortion concocted by the Republican newspapers opposed to Grover Cleveland and designed to mislead the public. In fact, Greenthal had his sentence commuted to time served. He remained a convicted felon until his death. Records from the New York State Archives clearly show that the document issued was a commutation of sentence and not a pardon.

Additionally, some of the language in the article could be in more elegant English.Mr. Posen (talk) 13:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Comment - can someone tell me what the dispute over this page is and how I can help? Mr. Posen, I under Postdlf may be is busy. Is there something I can do? —Мандичка^YO 😜 20:00, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, take a look in the edit history of this article, then User talk:Mr. Posen, then User talk:Postdlf#Changes to Abe Greenthal page and his post above to see the history in the right order. Brief summary: Mr. Posen has written a book about this article's subject, Abe Greenthal. He then used it to 1) expand the article and 2) supplant a reliable source that had been used in the article which conflicted with his own research. I reverted primarily because the citations he added to his book identified himself as its publisher (as well as because he showed a clear preference for his own book, and his (partial) removal of the conflicting source left citations broken and the text internally contradictory, as here) and asked him to discuss before restoring it. This has proven much more complicated and time-consuming than I was expecting.

My main concern has been whether this book qualifies as a WP:RS based on either its publication status (a copy is hosted online by an organization, but it's unclear what that means, such as whether they exercised any editorial supervision) and/or on Mr. Posen's status as a scholar if the book is best considered self-published.

And then if it does pass RS, what's the proper way to deal with another reliable source disagreeing with it, and is it proper for Mr. Posen himself to be the one to introduce his own book as a source into a WP article rather than simply presenting it for other editors to refer to it. Your time and help are appreciated! postdlf (talk) 20:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, thank you for explaining. I've tweaked the article a bit from NYT and online vital records. I'm sure you've explained to Mr. Posen that self-published sources are not allowed on Wikipedia as policy, even if the author has done everything professionally and fact-checked to perfection. However, the sources that you found through your research can almost certainly be cited. I'd be happy to work with you to make sure the article is as accurate as possible. —Мандичка^YO 😜 22:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your work. Robert Rockaway's book is the source he has a problem with, a source that I did find an error in (as noted in the footnotes in the article currently) but which unquestionably passes RS (as I noted to Mr. Posen on my talk page, Rockaway has held numerous academic positions, his book used in the Greenthal article was published by an established publisher, and I've found other published books by him, including at least one published by an academic press). You can see our respective comments on that in the talk page threads linked above. postdlf (talk) 22:25, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Hmmmm... well if his work was published by an institute, it's not self-published after all... I have no doubt that Rockaway is a reliable source but he may not have done as in depth research on Greenthal in particular and possibly relied on incorrect info (it was common for people to make up names and birthdates back then, since there were no real records), so it may be that Posen has found better sources. —Мандичка^YO 😜 23:08, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if the Leo Baeck Institute's inclusion of it in their collection counts as "publishing" rather than something more akin to "hosting". postdlf (talk) 23:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I left him a message on his page. Leo Baeck Institute is reputable. I don't think anyone needs a "host" in this day and age. Anyway I'll follow up and hopefully we can work it out. —Мандичка^YO 😜 23:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Hello Мандичка,

I presume that I have you to thank for the improvements in the page. However, there is no mention of my book among the references. That seems mean-spirited on the part of postdlf since I am the one upon whom the article relies for some of the improvements.

Would it not be helpful to the public to make that improvement and to point out what Grover cleveland said as to why he commuted the sentence of an old man? It is also a half-truth to mention what The New York Times wrote but not to refer to the original document which clearly shows that Abraham was NOT pardoned but rather had his sentence commuted. There is a real difference. In New York, where I was admitted to the Bar, someone pardoned can vote and hold public office while someone whose sentence has been commuted cannot if convicted of a felony. There are other errors which could be rectified as well. For example, since Abraham arrived in New York harbor with his wife 12 May 1851 aboard the American ship Roscius and died on 17 November 1889, he could not have been active in this country "for more than 40 years." The Roscius passenger manifest can be retrieved on Ancestry.com Mr. Posen (talk) 19:31, 16 September 2015 (UTC)