Talk:Abdul Rahman al-Eryani

Family history

There is an article in Haaretz about his early family life, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1030121.html. Perhaps someone one more knowledgeable about him could include these information. -- Panoramix303 (talk) 14:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Just added it as external link... AnonMoos (talk) 19:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The article in Haaretz about Abdulrahman Al-Eryani's early family life is totally wrong (notice the correct spelling of his name). I say that because I know him very well, he is my Grandfather. To be honest I never heard of Zakaria Hadad ever before, so I asked my dad and my uncle (Abdulrahman Al-Eryani's biological sons) and other senior members of the family if they even heard this name before, and here is the story: Zakaria Al Haddad is the Jewish name of Abdul-Raheem Al Muhtadi who served as a bodyguard for Grandpa Abdul-Rahman when he was a judge in Al-Naderah and maybe a little longer until he was replaced by Abdallah Thabit who I personally know. Abdul-Raheem Al Muhtadi settled in Nejd-Rayman; a section of the village "Eryan", and started a dokkan (a small shop). His house is the one right in the middle of the village next to Mohamed Malik’s house. There was another convert: Abdul Aziz Al Muhtadi, who seemed to have never reconciled himself to Islam. His house is next to Al Qadi Abbas house over "Ruqbat Al-Sidd". His oldest son, Abdul-Karim, who was captain of the soccer team of Nejd-Rayman about 40-45 years ago, was a ground engineer for the Yemeni Air force. He died tragically when a pilot ejection seat went off while he was fixing it. Abdul-Raheem was a handsome tall man who had beautiful children and grand children. His children and grand children intermarried with Eryanis and with others from the village and from Sana'a and Bani Matar. What many in the family didn't know was that there was another young girl, younger than Zakaria, and nobody knows what happened to her. I hope this clarifies any misinformation published in Haaretz. Sincerely --Eryani (talk) 18:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm moderately sympathetic that you feel your family history is being misrepresented, but unfortunately from the point of view of Wikipedia 1) Your unpublished family recollections do not count as a reliable source and 2) Whether true or false, the Haaretz article needs to be mentioned in some way on the article, since it's probably the most prominent individual coverage which he's received in the English-language media in the last ten years. Indiscriminately deleting everything relating to Haaretz doesn't do anything to resolve these problems... AnonMoos (talk) 02:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Dear AnonMoos, I understand and respect your point of view. But whether or not it's the most prominent individual coverage which my grandfather received in the English-language media or any other media, does not change the fact that it is wrong. And I feel strongly that it is my obligation as a member of this family to correct anything that was said or being said about my family. What is wrong is wrong and it being in Haaretz or Aljazeera or CNN or BBC or whatever local or foreign publication or news agency does not make it right. Wikipedia is one of the most widely used source of information world wide and misrepresenting any individual or group in anyway in my opinion is a crime that is committed towards those who rely on this source for information and knowledge. I can easily start an article and misrepresent anyone and anything that I want and by adding it to an encyclopedia like Wikipedia I can be rewriting history and draw people who read it away from the facts, but I don't do that, we have to help create a reliable source of information not just a source of information regardless of whether it's right or wrong. The Author of the article in Haaretz based his/her article on what he/she heard about Abdulrahman Al-Eryani, I base my argument on what I heard from Abdulrahman Al-Eryani himself. For your information we are currently working on publishing his memoirs so if you're really interested, stay tuned and you will get to know what he had to say about himself. Unfortunately the book will be published only in Arabic, but if we find enough demand to publish it in other languages, we will. I hope you understand my point of view on this matter and why I will continue to do my best to eliminate any misrepresentation of my family. Best Wishes --Eryani (talk) 19:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Eryani, but your argument doesn't quite hold up. Since there is a dispute, we can try to phrase the information as "According to an article in Ha'aretz," but we're not deleting it. It is information from a prominent English-language news site, and so far there is no published material disputing it. If Iryani was your grandfather, and you think your family history is misrepresented, then you should try contacting Ha'aretz, or talk to Al-Jazeera, or talk to any other new organization and get the "real story" out there, if in fact it is the case. But Wikipedia doesn't censor. PBP (talk) 16:48, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

There is a published material disputing specifically the article in Haaretz, feel free to read it: http://www.yemenonline.info/news-926.html Other members of my family tried to get any contact information of Dorit Mizrahi to discuss this but because of Privacy Policies this kind of information cannot be provided by third parties which is totally fair and right. I have submitted a response to the article in Haaretz referring to the article on yemenonline tackling the misrepresentation in Dorit Mizrahi article, but unfortunately my response was never posted. It seems to me that Haartez publishes whatever they like and disregard anything they don't like regardless of whether it's right or wrong and without checking the facts behind things that gets published with them.... So much for your "PROMINENT" English-language news site. If you really want to put that information I suggest that you rephrase the information to "According to a FALSE article in Ha'aretz,". I am sorry if my argument doesn't hold up for you but I have provided names and other details about Zakaria, his children and his grandchildren (what they did, what they do right now, where they live.....) that no one can provide unless he/she really know them. If you still don't believe me, I'll be more than happy to arrange a visit for you to Zakaria's family if you are ever in Yemen. --Eryani (talk) 19:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Eryani, for pointing out the Yemen Online article, it will be added. I still don't think the Jewish claim should be eliminated, but perhaps it can be contrasted with the article from the Yemen Online? There wouldn't be any judgment over whether or not the claim was true. I don't know--what do other editors think about this? Also, Eryani, might I suggest contacting Yossi Melman, who wrote the Ha'aretz article? His email is on the website.

As to whether or not the name is spelled Iryani or Eryani, virtually all English-language sources list it as Iryani--including the Yemen Online--with few that spell it as Eryani. It's surely a result of English-Arabic translation differences, though I don't think any spelling can be considered "right." PBP (talk) 21:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I read the Haaretz article a couple of days ago and the first thing that came to my mind is "BS". I personally did not know Abdul Rahman Al-Iryani but my father did was a good friend of his as well and when I told him what I read in Haaretz, he was upset and was really sad to hear that some people are trying to misrepresent a great man like Abdul Rahman Al-Iryani. He also confirmed what "Eryani" said about Zakaria and that he was Abdul Rahamn Al-Iryani's bodyguard for a while and that he adopted the name Abdulraheem afterwords. This is one thing that Wikipedia does not protect because of their neutral position on matters like these which is really unfortunate. Now I understand why many universities around the world do not consider Wikipedia as a reliable source. God knows how many false articles i've read in Wikipedia????????? VERY SAD

hello to the dude who wrote the article well u havent finished ur homework but haartez wrote a new article that has the truth so we win hes not a jew and dont get me wrong "THANK GOD hes not" it turns out that the whole stupid story was made up by some silly jew that had nothing to do so he thought "oh well y dont i get back at the yemeni president for revealing our involvement in Islamic Jihad and the U.S. embassy bombing" ugh god dont they hav other things to do so please open this link and correct this article or else someone is gonna take some action andf u dont wanna get this far belive me http://www.emptyquarter.net/?p=647 dont take it as a threat am just giving u a small advice for ur benefit so i hope u use it and be wise,, haha well jews well always be jews they wont change too bad,, anyway thanks alot. ill be viewing the page constantly and i hope i get some update;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.189.68.92 (talk) 21:54, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Revisions to the article

I am from the Eryani family, Abdalrhman Al-Eryani was my great grandfather and I found the original article very disturbing not only to me but to the whole Eryani family,I tried editing the page and it seems that it worked (THANK GOD), I really hope nobody tries to edit it with false facts, cause relgion is a sensitve subject and am sure nobody wants to be claimed to another relgion or claimed to be someone he/she is not, so please try to understand us. And to be truthful I was really dispointed by the website. Now I can relax and know that he's resting in peace:)

Well, i am afraid that your claim about belonging to Al-Iryani family cannot be verified, and even if it were, that does nothing to negate the haaretz article as false. Those are your personal views and dont count. The probability of the haaretz account being true is just about as much as the yemenionline account being true. Look, i'm not saying for a fact that Al-Iryani was ethnically Jewish. It can't be said for sure. So, what i actually did offered both viewpoints, including both the Yemenionline claim as well as the haaretz claim. They both are equally deserving of mention. And i have mentioned them strictly as CLAIMS instead of FACTS, so that the novice reader does not get confused and falsely see this article as contradictory.

You might simply dismiss all this by claiming that you are his grandson and that the Haaretz article is nonense. I am not calling you a liar, but that simple claim can't be verified. Anyone can hide behind the anonymity of the internet and claim that he is Al-Iryani's relative or Adolf Hitler's grand nephew or something like that. That does not necessarily make it so. This is very easy as you don't have to furnish proof, provide credentials and show your face. As for Haaretz, it is a reliable source and unless haaretz takes back its claims and dismiss them as false, the claim of Al-Iryani's alleged Jewish origin is notable.

Moreover, if you insist that haaretz is lying by fabricating Al-Iryani's history because of some ulterior motives, let me state that the same could be said of Yemenionline and dare i say it, even his relatives. It's just as probable, if not more. An overwhelmingly large number of Arabs and Muslims hate Jews, and there is a lot of prejudice and social stigma attached to the word "Jew" in these countries. Even though Yemeni muslims have tolerated Jews living in Yemen, there is still a profound hatred and contempt for Jews living there. It could very well be that Al-Iryani kept it a secret by never revealing his Jewish ethnicity to his children and hence the descendants don't know. It could be possible that due to some sort of shame, the Yemeni press, relatives and friends of Al-Iryani are deliberately concealing this. Anything is possible, and rather than make a false judgement, it's better to leave both theories mentioned.

Also, since i am pretty sure that you must have created your account solely for editing this article and are unfamiliar with wikipedia rules and guidelines, let me point out a few things for you. You have completely deleted the haaretz claim, while giving sole credence to the yemenionline article. This is in clear violation of WP:NPOV, which stresses balance in mentioning different viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. Wikipedia is not our personal domain, and whatever edits we make here reflects on the credibility of the website, as a whole. Also, you have simply copy-pasted to this article six paragraphs from this article http://www.yemenonline.info/news-926.html. This constitutes plagiarism and violates WP:COPYRIGHT. Due to these aforementioned reasons, i have reverted your edits. Joyson Noel (talk) 08:02, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

ok i understand your point but could you atleast rewrite the contrasting because its not very clear,, you should say that the women who claims that Abdulrhman alEryani is her brother is the one who started the lie,and that her real brother is abdulraheem al mohtadi to be more acurte he changed his name when he was converted to islam and he was adopted and raised by al Qadi Yahia al iryani and to be muslium (not forced) and if you know the islamic law its forbiden to adopte and orphan and name him after your name or familys name thats why he was names abdulraheem al mohtady (almohtady because he converted to islam "ehtada lelislam"), he worked as a gaurd for Ex-Prisedent abdulrahman A-Eryani theres a picture in yemenonlines article of both Abdulrhman alEryani and Abdulraheem Almohtadi and abdulraheems son still lives in nejd rayman i just saw him last month, i even know abdulraheem's granddaughter, maybe they still have the real letters from abdulraheems sister or nephew or what ever the claim to be, ill make sure if they still have it and try to uplode them here. more to add can you please link the website of yemenonline http://yemenonline.info/news-926.html so that people could view it. Owh and one more thing when you double click the picture it says zakaria and not abdulrhman i hope you work on changing that too. Ps its not a shame for arabs if they once were jews after all once upon a time our great great great grandfathers were but then islam came and we converted to it, so if Abdulrhman alEryani used to be jewish for real we won't deny it, the most important thing is that he died saying "Ashhad an la'ellah ella Allah, W'an Mohmad rasol Allah" so if he was a jew for real we would have confirmed it theres nothing to be ashamed of, not to mention that Abdulrahman al Eryani was a man of God and he wrote several islamic books and he was a Qadhi and a President where he ruled the country with islamic law, and i would like you to add that to the article as well and am going to send you the names of the islamic books that he wrote so that you can edit them. i would have edited the changes my self to avoid you the trouble if you wont delete them:) anyways at last Thank you alot every memeber of Al-Eryani would be really greatful if you will make the changes sugested above because its realy dishonorable to "our man" Abdulrhman alEryani. i really cant understand this girl who made up this story its really not a way of honnoring her real grandfather(abdulraheem)'s death what a shame. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.114.160.34 (talk) 09:39, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, i can't mention that what the woman said was a lie, because i have no proof. Even if i did discover some contradictions, mentioning why it is improbable and calling her a liar would constitute original research and violate WP:OR. Wikipedia is in the business of reflecting different historical viewpoints and incidences, not creating them. As such, i am afraid that i wouldn't be able to include the list of books he wrote if sent by you, since it must be referenced by a credible online source such as a news agency, magazine, etc. The same goes for pictures of Abdul Raheem's letters, as they are not verifiable. Also, i cannot mention that the brother's name was "Abdulraheem al mohtady" because this is not mentioned in the yemenionline article. However, the fact about Abdul Rahman al-Iryani being a qadi is already mentioned in the article. As for the yemenionline link, there is no need to put it in the external links, as anyone interested in cross-checking references can come across it.

Finally, let me repeat myself in case you did not bother to check the talk page of the account you created. See this. When i uploaded the article, i simply chose the name "Zekharia Haddad" as the image name, because Abdul Rahman al-Iryani was very long, and i was not yet aware of the yemenionline.com claim. An image name is just a name and doesn't signify anything about the person. Even if i named it "Alladin" or "Yemeni", an image name means nothing. Anyway, if your still offended by the image name and want it changed, i will do so. If you just take the time to check the image description page, you will see that i have nowhere referred to him as "Zekharia Haddad, former president of the Yemen Arab Republic", instead as "Abdul Rahman al-Iryani, former president of the Yemen Arab Republic".

I hope i have made myself clear. If there are still any questions, requests or objections on your part, please don't hesitate to inform me. Regards, Joyson Noel (talk) 16:57, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Although i dont know what is it to you to edit an article of someone that seems not to concern you but ill have to thank you for everything you've done,, and about the picture yes please do change it, your hands won't break if you just typed some more letters or you could just copy paste, and second of all about the link to yemenonline i dont get you why you dont want to add it i didn't get that part sorry so please do add it. And an advice from me to you and am sure every member of the Eryani family agrees with me (just to avoide you the upcoming trouble you might get in ), is to delete the whole article because it is a very sensitive topic not just to us but even to Yemen after all he was a president of the country, am sure if i post in any website that Bush was gay they would delete the whole website, so please try to understand us and sorry if any of my words offended you but am sure if you were in my place you would say even more, we're just trying to honor his death with dignity. Thank you:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.114.160.34 (talk) 20:41, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Even though changing image names are hard, i will try my best. If you just bother to look at the references, you can see that the yemenionline article is linked there. Its entitled "Haaretz dreams". If you want the article to be deleted, then you must go talk to an administrator here in wikipedia and state your reasons.Use this. Although, its unlikely that anything will be done because there is no valid reason to do so. Your asking us to delete the article, because this article for some reason seems highly senistive to you and offends you. Well, wikipedia does not work that way, and if you read its guidelines, you will see that wikipedia does not censor its articles for the benefit of any group. There is nothing controversial about him, apart from his disputed origins. As president of North Yemen, he is a notable figure and therefore, this satisfies the criteria for inclusion. Well, i'm pretty sure that you posted a comment stating that Bush was gay, or something like that in any website, they wouldn't close down the website. Unless your living in Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, North Korea, etc, free speech is your basic right and is allowed in the internet. You'll only get into problems if you post child pornography or hurl violent threats about committing terrorist attacks through the internet. Unless your planning on committing those acts, feel free to do what you want. I'm sorry if this article's inclusion in this website offends you in any way, but there is nothing i can do. We have no intention to dishonor him, and have not done so in the article. I can't understand what you find offensive. Joyson Noel (talk) 21:12, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Aeryani, Eryani, R.g.f.e, or whatever other identities you may have. I plead with you to stop re-inserting plagiarized text from other websites and posting it over here. If you find the fact about the haaretz claim being mentioned here offensive, then i'm sorry that nothing can be done to remove it. This haaretz claim is notable and is equally deserving of mention along with the yemenionline claim. I believe that i have mentioned enough about this in my previous messages and i'm not keen on repeating myself. Your removal of the haaretz claim and yemenionline claim without any proper reason constitutes vandalism. Read WP:VANDAL. If you continue to do so in the future, i will see to it that all your accounts are blocked, and any new ones are prevented from being created. Joyson Noel (talk) 12:36, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

A sensible and reasonable compromise

My edit showed that I am okay with keeping the allegation of Jewish descent there since it got some media attention and it is from a generally reliable source. However, there is the issue of plagiarism, much of the content that was added was word-for-word plagiarized which is unacceptable in any case. But the worst of it, is that the version that I reverted was giving toooo much attention to an allegation as if it is an authority source on Abdul Rahman's life rather than what it really is, an allegation from a single source, the idea that this is being allowed is insane. Remember Wikipedia is not tabloid, we don't give undue weight to controversial and unverified allegations. So the compromise is that we have only 2 paragraphs, one to briefly summarize the allegation, and one to briefly summarize the rebuttal but as long as they are neutral and they accurately reflect the articles to which they are attributed to. That is the more acceptable compromise.--Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 15:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Anonmoos and his violation of copyright

Anonmoos insists in reinserting plagiarized information even though I pointed it out to him much of the information is plagiarized. He doesn't care, so I am going to go through the trouble of highlighting plagiarized information: (plagiarized text in bold)

There are several conflicting claims regarding the ethnic origins of Abdul Rahman al-Iryani. Yossi Melman, in an article on October 2008 in Haaretz reported that Dorit Mizrahi, a writer in the Israeli ultra-Orthodox weekly Mishpaha claimed that al-Iryani was of Yemenite Jewish descent and also relation to him through his grandmother Levana. The claims made by Mizrahi are as follows:

Al-Iryani was born Zekharia Hadad to a Yemenite Jewish family in Ibb, a provincial capital in northern Yemen. His parents planned for him to be either a shohet (a ritual slaughterer) or a rabbi, and he began to study the laws of the profession at an early age. In 1918, Yemen was plagued by a series of droughts and the the water that was rationed out caused an outbreak of disease among the local populace. The epidemic took the lives of both of his parents who died within a short time of one another, leaving behind three orphans: Levana (Kamar in Yemenite), who was already married (into the Gamliel family), 8-year-old Zekharia and their 5-year-old sister.[2]

As a result, Zekharia and his younger sister was subject to the "orphans decree," which had been introduced by Imam Yahya, the King of Yemen. The law dictated that, if a Jewish boy or girl under the age of twelve was orphaned, their connection to their religion and their family was to be severed and they had to be handed over to a Muslim foster family. The rule was based on the law that the prophet Mohammed is "the father of the orphans," and on the fact that the Jews in Yemen were considered "under protection" and the ruler was obligated to care for them.[2]

Due to the fact that she was a married woman, Levana escaped the orphans decree and continued to live in Yemen for about another 15 years. Over the years, Levana was widowed, remarried to a man named Menahem Taasa, and immigrated to the British Mandate of Palestine with him in 1934. They settled in Jeruslaem, where they lived for the remainder of their lives.[2]

As soon as the news of the parents' death was known, before the Jewish community managed to hide them or marry them off, Zekharia and his sister were taken away by official representatives, who appeared on horseback. The family unsuccessully tried to object, offered them jewelry and money, pleaded and wept, their efforts proving to be futile.[2]

Zekharia was put under the care of the Al-Iryani family, a powerful and influential family whose sons held public office and originated in Irian. His adoptive father was Yahya Al-Iryani, a qadi who held great power in the Yemenite tibal society and had armed soldiers serving under him. Zekharia was renamed "Abdul Rahman al-Iryani", forcibly converted to Islam and brought up together with the rest of the qadi's remaining biological children. Initially, at immense personal risk, al-Iryani still managed to keep in touch with his family, although he was threatened that if he ran away, his natural sister and her children would be murdered.[2]

According to his surviving relatives in Israel, his last contact with his family was during World War II. Levana's son, Nissim Gamliel enlisted in the British army in Palestine in 1942 and was taken captive by the Germans. From his captivity, he wrote several letters to al-Iryani in Yemen, whose address he remembered. al-Iryani, already an important public figure at the time, replied in two letters and even sent food packages to his nephew. Gamliel saved the letters in his personal diary, which he wrote in secret in Rashi script, in Hebrew, in the prison camp. In 1945, he was released from captivity and returned to Palestine. However, over the years some of the pages of his diary were damaged and together with it the letters disappeared as well. --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 01:27, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Whatever, dude -- I've written or added no material for this article (other than this), and in fact, most of my edits to it have been deleting plagiarized material which was added by a self-proclaimed Yemeni Arab. See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Rahman_al-Iryani&diff=262373559&oldid=262331441 , http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Rahman_al-Iryani&diff=255811910&oldid=255804892 , http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Rahman_al-Iryani&diff=255630795&oldid=255623653 , http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Rahman_al-Iryani&diff=255440155&oldid=255365278 , http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Rahman_al-Iryani&diff=255205577&oldid=255050053 , http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Rahman_al-Iryani&diff=254879742&oldid=254754626 etc.

The simple fact is that your proferred replacement text is simply not acceptable (for reasons I've previously explained on your user talk page, among a number of others), and not mentioning the controversy covered in several reputable newspapers is also unacceptable. If you have any actual interest in improving this article (as opposed to displaying your attitudes), then the course of action is to cooperate on producing an acceptable replacement -- something which I haven't seen any evidence that you're willing to do so far. AnonMoos (talk) 07:51, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

To anyone interested in editing this article, plagiarism of copyright information is not accepted no matter what the circumstances are. People can be blocked for continuing to plagiarize despite warnings. Please refrain from plagiarizing. As for content dispute, no one has addressed my points in the compromise which was to mention the controversial allegation but to not to give it the amount of text it does not warrant. --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 18:18, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1030121.html. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a license compatible with GFDL. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:04, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Need to wikify

It surely goes against Wikipedia editorial policy to cut a paste a whole Guardian article into this page Niemin2 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:37, 25 March 2011 (UTC).

For some reason a misguided individual has been doing that off-and-on for the past two years... AnonMoos (talk) 21:54, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

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