Talk:A God Walks into Abar

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Episode tit te

The title of the episode is "A God Walks into a Bar". This is the case on the HBO page, as well as the fandom wikia. I think the typo "Abar" came from IMDb, which has since been corrected.

I tried moving the page but it said there was already a page with the same name; possibly because the names are so similar.

Please could someone with more technical expertise move the page to reflect the correct title.

Dopples (talk) 07:19, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The titles are in the episode uses "Abar". --Masem (t) 13:41, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

English language

I believe that Masem is having some trouble with the English language. "Show" is a general term that can encompass either a single performance or a single episode or a series of performances or a series of episodes. While originally "show" meant a single performance, it came also to be applied first to the entire run of a given play, and then to a run of related episodes. Similarly, while Polygon is a website, it is also a publisher. The lead on that article says, Polygon is an American video game website that publishes news, culture, reviews, and videos. Although all six of the 2020 nominees for Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form may qualify as "television episodes", that term is a little passe when applied to on-demand streaming media. "Show" is more generic and would include all the performances that are "Dramatic Presentations". --Bejnar (talk) 12:42, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Watchmen is a television series, and it had episodes. The individual episodes are not "shows", no one else would call them "shows". (if anything Watchmen itself would be the show). That's an extremely irregular use of the word "show" that is not used on WP at all. --Masem (t) 13:38, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I respectfully disagree. See Television show and Show for the variety in usage. --Bejnar (talk) 15:23, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't disagree that you could call an episode a "show" by some definitions of the term, but in the common language used on WP here and in the sources that covered the series, it was considered an "episode" because overall Watchmen is a serialized program with eight sequential "episodes". That's how all television critics saw the overall work. --Masem (t) 16:24, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't disagree that "A God Walks into Abar" is an "episode" of Watchmen. I do disagree that all nominees for "Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form" must be episodes. There are numerous uses of "show" in this sense in Wikipedia:

"At the end of each show in Series 1, they try..." List of Little Britain characters
"where before a live show in series three she reportedly spoke out ..." Sharon Osbourne
"the town's yacht club are unmistakable in "Marooned" the fourth show in series 2." Fun at the Funeral Parlour
"The cost fell from £601 a show in series 3 to £486 in series 4." Round the Horne

and numerous other examples. Just bbecause you don't use it, does not mean that it isn't proper. As I said, see Television show and Show. --Bejnar (talk) 21:20, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And I note all those are British series. American series (which Watchmen is) nearly always use "episode" and per MOS:TIES, we'd use that for this. However, even there, I will point out that shows like Doctor Who and Black Mirror also frequently use "episode" too. --Masem (t) 21:44, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And you are still missing my point, "show" is a more general term, and while episode may be used here, "show" is the better term not for MOS:TIES reasons, we don't get down to that level of detail, but because "television episodes" is too narrow. By the way, there are American examples of this use of "show":

Lost Reputation "Before, each [episode] was an individual show," she said. "You could just pick up anytime ..." quoting American actress Mariska Hargitay
Star Trek: The Next Generation "several episodes were released as stand-alone single show Blu-ray products."
American Inventor "Unlike the first season, the three finalists for voting were declared and were voted on by viewers immediately after the second-to-last show. The season finale was a single show, where the winner is declared among the finalists."

Do you understand what I am trying to say? --Bejnar (talk) 03:26, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but I still think "episode" is the proper word in the context for Watchmen. First, there is caution to be using other Wikipedia pages as examples, but to stay with what you have, the first example works against your case, as in context in the reference, the quote given is trying to say each episode was a standalone work (a "show") rather than as part of a serialized work. And the fact the source replaces it with "episode" in the brackets supports that. The same with the second idea, that "show" here talking about the work could be a standalone product, which for TNG was definitely the case.

It is really really subtle but nearly every case you present here, the concept of "show" is talking towards the single broadcast or presentation of an episode, in some cases, an episode of a TV series that could also be considered a standalone (single) work, whereas an "episode" is just one basic segment of a telvision series. A TV series is made up of episodes, which then may or may not be considered individual shows, depending on the nature of the work. The less serialized the work, the more the episodes can be treated as shows.

But the key part at the edge of the day is the sourcing for Watchmen specifically, and that's all in favor of "episode". I can't find easily find any reliable sources that call the individual episodes as "shows" but "episodes" is universally hit. --Masem (t) 05:29, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also pinging the TV Wikiproject since they would have experience here to help. --Masem (t) 05:30, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But the context here is not for Watchmen, it is for "Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form". --Bejnar (talk) 13:03, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Which gives no special weight at all. The award covers any type of AV medium as long as the presentation time is less than 90 minutes (to distinguish from the Long Form). Most of the time this has been episodes of TV shows (like this year), but like last year included a music album. Nothing in the Hugo pages points to a distinction between "show" vs "episode". --Masem (t) 13:39, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of the what Polygon is, what's important is that the citation template that a "website=" will display in italics (which Polygon should) while just "publisher=" (like a publishers house like Random House) does not. Generally, if we're using an article off a reliable website like Polygon that provides its contact, then we want that in italics in the reference like if it was a newspaper or magazine, and thus put it as a "website=" parameter to get that. --Masem (t) 13:38, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I accede to the use of the parameter "website" over "publisher" for Polygon, although it is both. --Bejnar (talk) 15:23, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Episode

An episode should be called an episode. There really does not need to any discussion here, as any other name is just nonsense. I'd also like to see WP:FA examples of episode articles that use "show" instead. Unless those can be produced, this is really a non-issue. Also, an article needs to be consistent within itself. This article uses {{Infobox television episode}} which uses "episode" in it, and the category is placed in categories with the name "episode". --Gonnym (talk) 10:49, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree with Gonnym. When talking about television programs we don't normally use the word show. "Show" is suitable for broadway shows, magic shows etc but not television programs. We've actually had multiple cateegory renames in the past year to reflect that. An episode of a TV program is an episode, not a show. I'm sorry Bejnar, but if somebody is having trouble with the English language, it's not Masem. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:54, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I also concur with Gonnym. An episode is an episode. — YoungForever^(talk) 14:08, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What word would you suggest in this sentence that would cover The award covers any type of AV medium as long as the presentation time is less than 90 minutes (to distinguish from the Long Form). Most of the time this has been episodes of TV shows (like this year), but like last year included a music album.

X was one of six ____________ nominated in 2019 for a Hugo for Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form.? --Bejnar (talk) 11:58, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Works". --Masem (t) 13:30, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Or, better, "Television programs". Never use "TV show" – it's vernacular. Use "television program" or "television series". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:48, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of "This Extraordinary Being"

"This Extraordinary Being" is another episode of Watchmen that was nominated for a Hugo. My question is, given that this article is about "A God Walks into Abar" and not Watchmen, what relevance does mentioning "This Extraordinary Being" have under the "Critical response" to "A God Walks into Abar"? To me it seems that the answer is none. In general notability is not transferred. --Bejnar (talk) 12:42, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think this times to the above. This is an episode of highly serialized television series, not like separate anthology works that all simply ran under the name "Watchmen". It doesn't make sense to treat this as a work that exists outside the series itself, so the fact that another episode in the series was also nominated for the same award seems also fair to name. --Masem (t) 13:41, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it does not make sense to treat this as a work that exists outside the series itself, so what the lead and the synopsis sections do is tie it to the series. However, the existence of another episode being nominated is not relevant to the "Critical response" to this episode. Hence mention of that other nomination in this section is inapposite. --Bejnar (talk) 15:30, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is not super essential, and obviously we're not listing out the other 4 nominees from other series. It is though a useful factor to know two episodes from the same series made the cut for this same award so this episode is not the only Watchmen episode in that category. --Masem (t) 16:30, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it may be useful to know two episodes from the same series made the cut for this same award; however, this is not the place for that. The more likely place for that would be in the Watchman article. --Bejnar (talk) 20:59, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]