Talk:A Free Soul

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Credits and other changes made on June 20, 2016

The following is a list of adjustments, revisions, corrections and additions made on June 20, 2016:

1) {previous edit}[in infobox] producer = Irving Thalberg
‎→‎ {revised edit} producer = Clarence Brown Production

per on-screen text in opening title card (Irving Thalberg's name does not appear anywhere in this film's credits)

2) {previous edit}[in infobox] based_on = A Free Soul (1927 novel)
by Adela Rogers St. Johns
A Free Soul (1928 play)
by Willard Mack<ref name="AFI"
→‎ {revised edit} based_on = From the book by
Adela Rogers St. Johns

per on-screen text (Willard Mack's name does not appear in the credits, nor do the years of his play or Adela St. Rogers' book). All such subsidiary information does not belong in the infobox and is being transferred to the text under section header "Production".

3) {previous edit}[in infobox] writer = John Meehan (Dialogue continuity)
Becky Gardriner (adaptation)<ref name="AFI"
Uncredited:
Phillip Dunning
Dorothy Farnum
John Lynch
→‎ {revised edit} writer = Dialogue continuity by John Meehan
Adaptation by Becky Gardiner

per on-screen text (Betty Gardiner's surname is not spelled "Gardriner"; the on-screen spelling of Philip Dunning's given name is "Philip", not "Phillip" and his name should be linked; John Lynch redirects to the John Lynch disambiguation page and should be unlinked). The subsidiary information specifying the uncredited names Phillip Dunning, Dorothy Farnum and John Lynch does not belong in the infobox and is being transferred to the text appearing under section header "Production".

4) {previous edit} [in infobox] cinematography = William Daniels
‎→‎ {revised edit} cinematography = William Daniels (cinematographer)|William Daniels

William Daniels redirects to the actor; this link should be disambiguated as William Daniels (cinematographer)

5) {previous edit} A Free Soul is a 1931 American Pre-Code film which tells the story of an alcoholism|alcoholic defense attorney
‎→‎ {revised edit} A Free Soul is a 1931 American Pre-Code film which tells the story of an alcoholic San Francisco defense attorney

unlinking common word alcoholism and identifying story's setting as San Francisco (per on-screen caption at start of film)

6) {previous edit} A Free Soul was adapted by Becky Gardiner and John Meehan (dialogue continuity) from the play by Willard Mack, which was based on the novel by Adela Rogers St. Johns
‎→‎ {revised edit} A Free Soul was written by John Meehan (dialogue continuity) and Becky Gardiner (adaptation) from the 1928 play by Willard Mack, which was based on the 1927 novel by Adela Rogers St. Johns… Uncredited contribution is also assigned to Philip Dunning, Dorothy Farnum and John Lynch.

transferring information (which does not appear in the credits) from infobox to main body of text.

7) {revised edit} Appending 5 inline cites of contemporary newspaper reviews (from July–August 1931).

Less than an hour after the above revisions were made, all were reverted, with the edit summary "better before". In many cases, such content disputes can be resolved amicably and, hopefully, such is the case in this instance. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 03:58, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

When a film credit says "A Mike Jones Production" it means that Mike Jones produced the film, unless someone else is liated as the producer (Mike Jones might be the executive producer).

The AFI credits aren't taken verbatim from the film, they are researched, which means that people whose credit was left off of the film (for any number of reasons) are properly credited. Anyone with any background in the history of the studio system knows this to be true: feuds with the studio, the blacklist, a jealous star, all these and more are reasons that people didn't get credited for the work they did. That makes the AFI credits more accurate, and more reliable than the film itself as a source for credits. BMK (talk) 17:32, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I had to re-expand the reduced section header "Credits" because only the first 4 points (of the 7 points listed) concern the infobox credits. The remaining 3 points focus on the text within the body of the article. My edits tend to be non-controversial and center upon corrections and straightforward additions (location settings as specified on-screen, cites, external links, etc). Most of these should not even require a discussion.

One element of disagreement may lay in how much information should be included in the infobox. I feel that infobox credits should be streamlined (only on-screen text), with the researched data located within the body of the film's article. Others may feel otherwise and may wish to expand the infobox. It is a subject for future discussion at the WikiProject.

For the present, since the response to my initial comments only focused upon point 1), I will limit myself to that point. The opening title card of A Free Soul shows the text, "A Clarence Brown Production" (confirmed by AFI), thus indicating that the director was also the producer. The name "Irving Thalberg" does not appear in the credits and is listed by AFI as "OS". Thus, if you insist that "Irving Thalberg" should be in the infobox, rather than under section header "Production", then his name should be followed by "(unbilled)" or "(uncredited)".

At some point we also need to discuss what, if any, objections exist regarding points 2) through 7). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:22, 21 June 2016‎ (UTC)[reply]

Do you do this every time anyone reverts one of your edits? BMK (talk) 21:35, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As for your other stuff, here's what you never quite seem to get in my numerous discussions with you: We are not limited to the information that's in the film's credits. As long as the information is sourced, we can get it from other places even if that information doesn't show up on the film at all. We are not a transcribing service, copying whatever is printed on the film into our articles, we are an encyclopedia, we reply on whatever sources are available and reliable. You, consistently, want to use only the credits on the film. In this you are wrong.

There, now we've discussed 2-7, and unless another editor comes along to agree with you, the article stays in the status quo ante, as there is no consensus to change it and the information in it is reliably sourced. Discussion over. BMK (talk) 21:47, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would do this every time anyone unjustifiably reverts one of my edits but, during my ten-and-a-half years at Wikipedia, you are the sole Wikipedian who has done so (and a number of times, at that).

Since you state, "There, now we've discussed 2-7", although your follow-up reply only covers points 1) and 2), I must assume that you did not bother to even look at the content of my points 3 through 7 (probably consigning them to WP:Too long; didn't read)

As for "here's what you never quite seem to get", is that if you had bothered to examine my edits, you would have seen that the sole name I deleted was that of Irving Thalberg (if his name remains, it should be made clear that he is uncredited). All of the other uncredited names which you appended to the infobox (such as Willard Mack or Dorothy Farnum), were merely transferred to a more-appropriate location, under section header "Production", with detail [see point 6) above].

What is most disconcerting, however, is your complete disregard of all my other revisions and additions which had nothing to do with uncredited names. Unlike our previous discussion at Talk:Mystery of the Wax Museum, where you ultimately incorporated [following a procedural akin to pulling Wiki-teeth] all of my revisions (including specifying names as "uncredited"), here you refuse to make a single concession to common sense and have declared this "Discussion over", thus leaving me no choice but to proceed to the next step, WT:FILM, where reason will prevail. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 23:20, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:TLDNR. BMK (talk) 00:44, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In another attempt at a compromise, I have made the following changes within the previous edit: the uncredited names (Irving Thalberg, Willard Mack, etc) which you added to the infobox on February 24, 2016 have now all been retained there, but with the notation "(uncredited)" following Thalberg's and Mack's name (per AFI which, in listing those names, specifies that they are not visible on-screen). —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 15:50, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]