Talk:A Dramatic Turn of Events

Article is written favorably toward album

Around the Reception area people are continuing to add un-reputable, highly rated sources, including using positive feedback in the negative section. Every time I try to change the page it is modified back. Someone check this please.Sonicspeed500 (talk) 06:12, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Reception removal

Why was it removed? Tons of fans responded how they felt in the comments, just like wikipedia to take down everything useful — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.84.27.153 (talk) 18:21, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The name of the fifth track

The edit that changed the track name to "Bridges in the Sky" was not vandalism. While the original announcement lists the track as "The Shaman's Trance", many online sources, including outlets offering pre-order of the album list it as "Bridges in the Sky". I'm not certain which should be put in the article, but those edits were made in good faith, and are not vandalism, and it's a bit harsh to label them as such.

[1]

Milko Krachounov (talk) 19:12, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Tracks Length

Is the tracks length source reliable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.139.221.129 (talk) 00:32, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Personnel

Any body able to find/discover and add more personnel to the album? Such as the intro voice in Bridges? — Preceding unsigned comment added by I.AM.CASK (talk • contribs) 02:51, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

What needs to be added?

Hey guys. The article has a pretty good, but not flawless Completion rating. What else needs to be added?

Ktmartell (talk) 21:08, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

ADToE based on Images and Words structures?

I think a mention of this article might be warranted for the main page. Anyone else think so? zappafrank2112 (talk) 00:08, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Probably a bit too controversial until DT comment on it Duncan3dc (talk) 11:47, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

That's not an article, it's some random guy speculating. Nothing worth putting in the article. 142.68.169.112 (talk) 19:34, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Does no one think it should be mentioned considering even Portnoy commented on it? Ktmartell (talk) 01:14, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

It most definitely is not just some random guy speculating. Go listen to "Lost Not Forgotten" and "Under A Glass Moon" and pause after each part and compare what each instrument is doing in each. If that doesn't convince you, do the same thing with "Wait For Sleep/Learning to Live" and "Far From Heaven/Breaking All Illusions." The songs are structured entirely the same. Not plagiarized like Nickelback's "How You Remind Me" and "Someday" but A Dramatic Turn of Events uses the same roadmap as Images and Words — Preceding unsigned comment added by SivArt (talk • contribs) 22:07, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

I actually came to this talk page specifically to say that I think the way it's presented currently is just about perfect. It is mentioned (as it bloody well should be), but in a fact-based way and without any Blabbermouth slant. Well done to whoever worded this bit of the article. MXVN (talk) 12:24, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Additional Chart Information

The album debuted at #1 in Japan on their overall album chart (the one that includes foreign and domestic albums). Someone should add that with the proper citations. 142.68.169.112 (talk) 19:36, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The album is #5 on the first week of sale in the Czech Republic, source: http://www.ifpicr.cz/hitparada/index.php - "TOP50 - Prodejni" and "201137" should be selected. I do not know better method of linking. The wiki page seems to be a bit messed up, so I do not dare to edit. Belenor (talk) 09:56, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Biased reviews

I know a lot of of the Wikipedia articles for fringe bands have this problem, as the person who edits it is more likely to be a fan and more likely to want to add positive material, but the reviews posted for this album are not taken from the usual stock of music critic sources, but rather a cherry picking of other positive review sites. I don't have anything against this album, I just think we should be working towards some consistency, for the sake of the reader. 202.171.168.178 (talk) 16:24, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I just found Metacritic's page for the album and it looks like the professional, reputable reviews of the album are quite mixed. We definitely need to do something about that section. Ktmartell (talk) 18:04, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I've just noticed the review taken from The AU Review, authored by dave roberts doesn't seem to be a professional review. I think we should remove this. Duncan3dc (talk) 17:25, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Well spotted, it appears to be a user review. It should be removed. Idiotchalk (talk) 03:01, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Trivia

The main character in the cover of ADTOE is the same used for the cover album of Circus Maximus, The 1st Chapter, in 2005. Some details let see that the shirt is the same, so we can think clip art was used for the making of the art of ADTOE. On the web are many sites where this is posted, so you can search. It's not important, just part of the trivia. It's a little bit interesting, though. --Stargazer004 (talk) 03:11, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:A Dramatic Turn of Events/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Idiotchalk (talk · contribs) 21:38, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

---

A fairly well-written article but there are a few issues to be addressed before passing as the GAN.

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Minor additions to lead neccessary. (see below)

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Some minor reference issues, reliability of some sources questioned. (see below)

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   On hold until issues below are fixed. Fail as of August 5, 2012.

Issues in the article

Infobox

• Not neccessary but the use of {{Start date}}, {{End date}} and {{Duration}} would be useful.
  • When I tried doing this, it auto-formatted the dates to the British style, which would be inconsistent with the remainder of the article. Is there a way to avoid this issue?

Lead

• Change "11th" to "eleventh".
• "with another, "Build Me Up, Break Me Down", coming soon" could use better wording such as "yet to be announced."
• The lead could use a bit more information to give a general overview of the article.
• "Billboard 200", Billboard should be italicized.

 Done

Background

• Sub-sections for "Departure of Mike Portnoy" and "Search for a new drummer" should be merged.
• "Writing, recording and promotion" can be split into two sections--one new section for recording and the promotion information added to Release.
• Change "a little more than a month" to "more than a month"
  • Unless this is a deal breaker, I would prefer to leave it as is.
• Change hyphen (-) to em dash (—) for "each candidate... to prepare" sentence.

Recording

• "Although Petrucci brought in some demos...", no need for "some."
• " the album's mixing and mastering by Andy Wallace were finished" doesn't read well, something more lie "the album was mixed and mastered by Andy Wallace by June 28."
• "but after flying there to finish the remainder of the vocals, decided to go back to Canada", add "he" before decided.

 Done

Lyrical themes and musical style

• Section can be renamed to "Composition" for clarity.
• "filling the entire disc as many of Dream Theater's past albums have" needs a reference.
  • I have been unable to find a reference for this, but would like to leave it as is.
• italicize and link The Mirror.
• remove brackets from Rich Wilson note, replace with em dashes.
• add dates after Images and Words and Scenes from a Memory.
• address
• "asserting that certain songs... counterparts on Images and Words" needs a reference.

Release

Note: Some of these issues are originally from Background but should have been moved (see above).

• "A Dramatic Turn of Events was highly anticipated leading up to its release" seems to be original research, a reliable source should be used to reference this or it should be removed.
• "Its cover art was shown several days later, done once again by longtime collaborator Hugh Syme" could read better, something like "its cover art, designed by longtime collaborator Hugh Syme, was revealed several days later."
• address
• "the band's second highest... 2009's Black Clouds & Silver Linings" needs a reference.

 Done

Reception

• "A Dramatic Turn of Events has received", "has" not neccessary.
• Information about Metacritic's rating should be added (e.g. 55 out of 100, based on [x amount] critic reviews).

 Done

Track listing

• Note 1 can be moved to Release.
• Note 2 can be added to the writing paragraph of Recording.
• Note 3 can be moved to Recording.
• Note 4 can be added to Personnel.

 Done

Personnel

• This section could use an overall reference, such as the album's liner notes.
• Remove Joe Maniscalco red link.
• No need to link audio engineering twice.

 Done

Charts

• Move/alphabetize Italian Albums Chart.
• Both Billboard charts should have US in front of them and Billboard italicized. (e.g. US Billboard 200)

 Done

References

• A number of references cite social networking sites/forums and per WP:ELPEREN, more reliable sources should be used. However, if these are verified accounts--James LaBrie doesn't appear to be--and there is no other source to be found, they can be used.
  • I do not believe there are other sources for these references.
• Link publishers where possible.
  • If required, I will go back and add publishers to each reference, but would rather not if possible.
• Reference 66 uses a bare url.
• There are two main issues with the dating of the references. One is that the references use British English format (DD MM YY) where they should use American English (MM DD YY). Also some references use numeric formats (e.g. ref 42) and most use full (e.g. ref 51). All references should use a definitive dating structure.

Sorry for the delay in the review! For now, the article is placed on hold for a week until the issues can be resolved—though most of them are minor. Idiotchalk (talk) 02:54, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed response. I will make these changes before the week is done, unless someone else wants to do them.--Ktmartell (talk) 22:57, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

More than a week has passed and there are majority of the issues were not addressed, sorry I have to fail the GAN. Once the remaining issues above are addressed, the article can be nominated again. Idiotchalk _(t@lk) 18:41, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Missing some great information

Last night I was fixing up some references and saw that the references listed for some information were just references to the ADTOE Facebook page! I ended up having to remove them because I couldn't find the original articles! The pieces of information I'm speaking of are the lyric and "heavy, Latin, and devastating" lines from Rudess. Does anyone know where we can actually find these gems?--Ktmartell (talk) 01:51, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Adding pictures

First demonstrations calling for the downfall of the regime in Bayda, Libya. The title A Dramatic Turn of Events refers to major historical changes taking place, including the Libyan Civil War.

I'm trying to get a recent picture of Mangini to add to the article. I'm also thinking about adding an image in "Lyrical themes". What does everyone think about this image and caption? I'm thinking it could work, but could also be a little bleak.--Ktmartell (talk) 00:52, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:A Dramatic Turn of Events/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Tomcat7 (talk · contribs) 13:12, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

---

• Add source after "You know, just to give you an idea of how deep this was to lose him, how difficult it was... after we got off the phone with him... I literally sat on the steps of my studio and cried. This is a guy who's a friend of mine, who we all love and admire. We didn't want to see it come crashing down."
  • This quote can actually be found in the article referenced in the sentence before it (Ref 2). Does that change anything, or should I still add it?
• No spaced m-dashes, per WP:MDASH
• "representing the band's first ever Grammy nomination." - could be referenced
• Ref 54, better using the language= parameter
• Dead links: 2, 39, 72, 73 [2]
• Ref 70 may note that registration is required
• [3] does not seem to be very reliable. The author is not an expert, but reviews albums rather as a hobby.--Tomcat (7) 13:31, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:A Dramatic Turn of Events/GA3. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Zwerg Nase (talk · contribs) 15:26, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Glad to review this. Zwerg Nase (talk) 15:26, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Things that need to be taken care of:

• Ref #4 cannot be considered reliable.
• Ref #5 has a CS1 error.
• As stated in the first GA review, you need to back up references from social media with ones from better sources. Otherwise, scrap the statement.
• Ref #11 is not a RS either.
• You should always put references at the end of segments. See the last paragraph of Writing and recording for an example where the ref needs to be moved.
• Same thing in the first paragraph of the next section.
• Refs #20 and 21 are not reliable. You should scrap that statement alltogether if no other sources are available for that claim.
• Ref #36: I wouldn't say that Ultimate Guitar is a RS.
• Citations needed for the release dates. Once more, you use this "Blabbermouth" source, which I cannot consider a reliable source.
• Supporting tour: Kicked off is a little colloquial.
• Again, there are several statements here where the sources are all not RS material
• Track listing needs sources, also, the track listing of the bonus editions should be brought into the appropriate format also used for the regular tracks.

Generally, this is a well written article prevented from achieving GA status at this point by the great lack of reliable sources. It is hard to imagine that for an album of a band as prominent as Dream Theater, only articles on blogs exist. I'll put this on hold for now.

Thanks for your review. I went ahead and removed all Blabbermouth references except for one, which gives the translated version of a Greek interview that is no longer available. Is it alright to leave that in, or should it also be removed?

With regard to the Twitter references, I was told by the first reviewer that Twitter references were OK as long as they were from a verified account, which Petrucci and LaBrie's are. Also, per WP:TWITTER, I don’t see any reason why the tweets in the article can’t be used. Can I leave those in there, or do I need to find other sources? Chances are, those sources will just reference the original tweets anyway.

Just let me know what you think on those two questions, and I'll get them fixed. Worst case, could I have another week? I think the article is almost there.--Ktmartell (talk) 17:40, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

@Ktmartell: Considering WP:TWITTER, I believe it is OK, since "the article is not based primarily on such sources". However, I am still concerned about the sources in the Supporting tour section. Blogs like Lick Library or The PRP, do you have any indication that proves that those are reliable? One indicator that is often used is wether the authors can be traced, which does not seem to be the case here? Zwerg Nase (talk) 18:25, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

@Zwerg Nase: I changed most of the references in the "Supporting tour" section, so hopefully that looks better. Just let me know if there are any other major concerns. Thanks again.--Ktmartell (talk) 19:46, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

@Ktmartell: Those look better! I'm sorry, I forgot one thing before: The last half-sentence in the Composition section, is that information covered by ref #14? If so, you should move the ref at the end of the sentence. If not, you should add a source. Zwerg Nase (talk) 20:23, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

@Zwerg Nase: I couldn't find a source for it, so I just removed it.--Ktmartell (talk) 21:15, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Alright, then it's a pass! Congrats :) Zwerg Nase (talk) 21:17, 31 October 2015 (UTC)