Talk:87th Infantry Regiment (United States)

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Untitled

My first attempt at creating a page from scratch, any assistance or critiques are highly encouraged. I consider this a work in progess. Forrest666 06:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's written in an unencyclopedic tone. You're supposed to write purely factual articles, not advertisements for the American military. Black-Velvet 11:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

87th IN Regiment motto

I understand the official translation of the motto "Vires Montesque Vincimus" is "We Conquer Power and Mountains" but I don't believe that's what it's actually saying. First off, it don't make sense so when I researched it I got "We have the Power to Conquer Mountains" which makes sense. Does anyone speak Latin who could properly translate the motto?

Solri89 (talk) 16:44, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I do not claim to be an expert on Latin, however I am a seminary graduate and have taught high school Latin. I, of course, defer to anyone with better knowledge of Latin than I. Since a literal translation would be "Power Mountains Conquer" perhaps the best tack would be to insert as few words as possible. So, since the original does not contain the Latin words for either "we" or "have", perhaps the best translation would be simply to rearrange as "(The) power (to) conquer mountains". However, as the motto is for an organization, I don't see any problem with prefacing it with "We have". Translating Latin is somewhat more of an art vice a science, in my opinion, since it is very free in word order and does not always include articles, pronouns, and prepositions that are usually required in English for proper sense and context. CobraDragoon (talk) 23:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm the person who put "We Conquer Power and Mountains" as the motto, and regardless of the literal or deduced translation, it should be "We Conquer Power and Mountains". According the United States Army Institute of Heraldry page at http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Catalog/HeraldryMulti.aspx?CategoryId=3688, that's the official translation of the motto that the Army issued. Superjewboy (talk) 22:41, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but the question here concerned the true translation vice the official version; see De oppresso liber for another example of the difference between an official translation and a true translation of a motto. CobraDragoon (talk) 01:33, 24 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I had already looked up the Army's official translation and I understand why you put that translation on this page. It is also why I didn't already correct it. Since it is the Army's official translation it is proper for it to be on this sites page. But what CobraDragoon said is what I mean. The official translation makes no sense and the Army should change it to be correct. I'm concerned though that it may literally take an act of congress to achieve that goal. And personally as a Veteran of 1/87 IN I would like to see it corrected. But I don't believe it should be corrected on this page until the Army corrects their mistake.

Does anyone have any idea of how to help correct this? Solri89 (talk) 18:07, 24 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest contacting the Institute of Heraldry, as I did about the issue of the rank of Army lance corporal. (See the article and talk page for details.) CobraDragoon (talk) 21:13, 24 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I did email the institute of heraldry about the motto. Did they ever answer you about your question and if so how long till you got a reply and what they say? Thanks brother. Solri89 (talk) 20:37, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I exchanged two or three emails with them over a one or two week period, as I recall. See the next to last paragraph of my posting under US Army Lance Corporal Rank for the summary of their response and the documentation they provided to me. CobraDragoon (talk) 22:33, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, vires is the plural of vis (power) so is it "We Conquer the Powers and the Mountains"? That sounds a tad better but I've learned that Latin grammar is on the loose side and the "que" suffix is used to connect words that have a greater connection together or else the word "et", which means "and", would be used instead. I still believe that although "We conquer powers and mountains" is a correct strict translation, that the actual meaning of the translation has to be "...powers of the mountains" or something along those lines.

Oh and btw, I did contact the office of heraldry and they informed me that this was the translation they finally "decided" upon as they had already changed the official translation before. The official translation used to be "We Conquer Men and Mountains". Someone screwed up priorly thinking the word "vir" (man) was used and pluralized. Solri89 (talk) 09:29, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, well as I wrote previously, they have their own methodology and this motto is not the only one that people dispute; the Special Forces motto has also been a bone of contention for some people for many years. It's somewhat like the current hyper-politically correct crowd today who insist on calling everyone who disagrees with them racist when what they actually mean is prejudiced or bigoted. Many people seem to just want to make words mean whatever they want them to mean without regard to reality or correctness. But, as Forest Gump said, "Stupid is, as stupid does." CobraDragoon (talk) 22:50, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, me again. It's been a few months and I've exhausted every avenue I can think of to correct the translation to "We Conquer Powers and Mountains" which btw, "powers" in this sense means "enemy forces". All to no avail. The only avenue I haven't used is just to correct it here and hope someone with authority to act corrects the official translation. Here goes. Solri89 (talk) 02:19, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I finally got the Institute of Heraldry to correct the translation. It should be We Conquer Powers and Mountains. Since they changed it, I think it's time to update. Solri89 (talk) 14:13, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Congratulations! Good job; your persistence finally bore fruit. I wish the Institute would be more responsive about changing some other things, such as their history of US Army enlisted rank insignia page. "Bravo Zulu", CobraDragoon out. CobraDragoon (talk) 14:31, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't get these dates

"On 3 February 1945, the regiment deployed to Italy with the newly redesigned 10th Mountain Division and entered combat on 28 January 1945 as part of the 5th US Army."

How did they enter combat in January if they didn't deploy until February? Solri89 (talk) 21:37, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright problem removed

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Getting the “Mountain” designation back

Since the 87th is the original mountain unit in the US army and they are part of a mountain division, why can’t we get back our mountain designation? I know the division isn’t purely trained in mountain warfare anymore but we train in an extreme cold environment. That though is besides the point. It’s historical and should be recognized. Solri89 (talk) 14:18, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What about 5/87?

The article mentions 1-4/87 but nothing of 5th Bn. They were stationed at Ft. Clayton Panama. After they left there in ‘96 I don’t know what happened to them. Solri89 (talk) 22:52, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]