Talk:55th (West Lancashire) Infantry Division

CE

Did a cheeky little ce, added several citations, auto edded, checked for dupe wikilinks, alpha sorted and tidied citations. Are we allowed to put sections (OOB) into a roll up section? Keith-264 (talk) 08:00, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Cambrai 1917 casualties

Miles 1948 [1991] OH 1917 III Appendix 22 p. 382 Casualties 20 Nov to 8 Dec 55th (West Lancashire) Division. Killed: Officers =15, Other Ranks = 134; Wounded: O = 56, OR = 870; Missing: O = 78, OR = 2,106; Total: O = 149, OR = 3,110. Keith-264 (talk) 22:05, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Much appreciated Keith!EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:09, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Size

I know that I still have a bunch of info that I was looking to add, as well as adding in the VC winners (per exp from prior similar articles), however I think we need to now start looking at ways to crop the article down some. The MOS states an article really shouldn't be over 100k. The 38th Div article passed it's FA review, and it's around the 105k mark. Currently, and still not finished, this is now at 115k. Obviously, before even starting the review process, I will be asking the GoCE to work the article over, but I don't think they would cut 20k worth of text while rewording and restructuring. Any ideas on where we can trim?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 17:17, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• Using the print version, the lead and body are only 18 out of 40 pages, the rest is the GOC list, OOB, and citations. We could also split between 1908-1919 and 1920-1945, or, once I'm done with the April to November 1918 section, we could go over it and summarize the minor actions in a less lengthy manner. Kges1901 (talk) 17:26, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

That actually makes me feel less anxious, with the majority being the OOBs and what not (I think we need to add another one for the inter-wad period too). To show my ignorance, how do we show the print version?

I would hope to avoid splitting the article, although I do note that has happened with some other 1st line TA units. Considering the home service nature of the division after 1919, I supposed we could also move to slim down those sections (for the most part, my recent edits in those areas have been copy and paste jobs from other articles that have passed their reviews, so that would be the slimmed down and reviewing passing material).EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:39, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• I think trimming the post-Spring Offensive 1918 narrative will solve most of the problem. The print version can be viewed by using ctrl-p on your computer or clicking print page in the print/export toolbar to the left of the screen. Kges1901 (talk) 19:55, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

CE

Did a bit of ce-ing but will stop while kges is busy. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 15:22, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Did a bit more, blammed a few typos, combined multiple cites with sfnm. An impressive comprehensive account. Regards 08:07, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

~== Epilogue ==

Are references missing? I don't see on p.160 several of the details mentioned in the article.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:23, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

• Those are covered by Becke, cited at the end of the same paragraph. Also, I think we are more than ready to nominate this for GA. Kges1901 (talk) 16:38, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Ah, okay. I am looking to make a few tweaks and additions to the inter-war and Second World War sections as there is no mention of the anti-invasion plan Julius Caesar yet. After that, I will ask the GOCE (hopefully Gog the Mild) to work the article over to bring the language into shape, then yes onto GA.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 17:35, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Also think we need to add at least one more OOB, for the inter-war period. The monthly and quarterly lists should provide that info.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 17:37, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I have asked the guys over at the resource center to see if they are able to get the Queen's Cameron book as it has info on the 1st and 2nd Liverpool Scottish to help flesh out the Second World War section, but I don't think that is something to hold up the review process. I see that you requested the B-class review, which has been done, and that you have also requested a graphic on the brigade insignia.

As the next step, I have requested that the Guild of Copyeditors go over the article before proceeding through the GA, A-Class, and FA reviews. Do you believe we should request a peer review prior to going through the reviews?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 06:09, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

• I think we can dispense with a peer review here as I think this can pass ACR without too much trouble and articles that pass ACR generally do well at FAC. Kges1901 (talk) 11:47, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough. Gog, one of the chaps over at the GOCE, has stated he can work the article although it maybe up to two weeks. He has been of valuable assistance in the past, and has thus far aided in several similar articles passing their various reviews including FA. I suggest we await him to work his magic before proceeding further.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:12, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

That's fine by me, and while we wait I can try to get an interlibrary loan of the Cameron Highlanders history. Kges1901 (talk) 17:25, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Awesome, sounds good! From the parts I could access via "snippet view" on Google, it looks like there should be enough enticing pieces of information to flesh out what the division was doing (i.e. guarding the docks etc)EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 18:32, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Just as a follow-up, the chap over at the resource center has just stated he will hopefully be able to send over the required info from the Cameron Highlanders history, so you may not need to request a copy.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:50, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

@EnigmaMcmxc: Now that Gog is done with the CE, I think the article is ready for a GAN. Kges1901 (talk) 22:57, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Copy edit

@Kges1901 and EnigmaMcmxc: Hi guys. I should be able to start on this over the next few days, in bits. I am assuming that you are aiming for FA. An initial observation: IMO the lead is too long; both in terms of words and paragraphs. Normally I would be looking, as a copy editor, to trim it.

1. Would you like me to do this?
2. Would you prefer to do this?
3. Would you prefer to leave it as is?

Gog the Mild (talk) 21:30, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• You can trim it; I think third party feedback like yours is necessary, and we can reword if necessary. Kges1901 (talk) 21:32, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I feel like Ron Swanson with his flags right now, "Slash it". My personal preference would be for you to work your usual magic :) EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:25, 5 September 2019 (UTC) Edit: I see you already have, and have whipped that lede right into shape!EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:28, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Why the upper case T in "14 Territorial divisions", "envisioned the Territorials taking over" etc? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:41, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• Territorial in reference to members of the Territorial Force or Territorial Army is often capitalized, for example [1]. Kges1901 (talk) 21:51, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Apologies. I should have specified. I meant in the context of Wikipedia, the MoS and MOS:CAPS. I take it that despite territorial and its derivatives not being proper names in ordinary use, you feel that "they are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources"? I note purely in passing that the article Territorial Force uses the lower case: "which disappointed the territorials"; "deploy territorial units overseas" etc. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:24, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

One could argue this is the same discussion that could be had over various other terms authors have used for British military related terms, for example: the inconsistent use of capitals in higher and lower establishment, first and second line etc. If correct grammar dictates a lower case t, if territorials (in this context) is not a proper noun, I think we should follow English grammar standards.

On the flip side, we could reword the first example as "Territorial Army", and the other examples as TA/TF as applicable?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:33, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Not sure how that helps with something like "envisioned the Territorials taking over".

"Haldane envisioned the TF would take over the defence of the country when the regular army was abroad on military service."

This suggestion would work here, imo.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:36, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

OK, yes; I see it now. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:36, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

• "The divisional artillery was sent to France in October" From the chronological flow I assume that this is October 1915, but it may be helpful to say. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:31, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

• Done. Kges1901 (talk) 19:28, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• "At the end of 1916, the British Army issued instructions for the platoon to be the basic unit in infantry tactics. Jeudwine wrote "It must be impressed on all platoon leaders that each one of them now has a 'self contained command' ... It is within the power of each one of them to influence to a great extent the course of an action by his knowledge, resolution and courage. Every means possible must be employed to develop [these men]"." The inclusion of this seems very strange. I almost took it out, but thought it best to check. And it is out of Chronological sequence. In fact, I have, here. Revert if you don't like it. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:00, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

  If I haven't misinterpreted, I have made a few tweaks in regards to this?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:46, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I like your tweaks. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:18, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

• "His actions have been credited with the battalion succeeding" To my eye this begs the question of succeeding at what? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:23, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• Rephrased, but this statement is really just rephrasing the VC citation. Kges1901 (talk) 19:28, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• "capturing 30 Germans"; "Forty-four prisoners were taken". This should probably be standardised.

  Suggestions? "Both companies withdrew amid fierce fighting, taking 30 prisoners."EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:46, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

My point was that in the same paragraph you use both numerals (30) and words (Forty-four) to describe PoW numbers. I would have expected a standard usage through the article. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:18, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

• The paragraph starting with the Battle of Amiens seems unnecessarily detailed to me. I suggest boiling it down into a couple of sentences from "The division was ordered ... " Ditto the battalion attack in the next paragraph. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:23, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

• @Kges1901 and Gog the Mild:: Thanks to the reminder by Kges, I got sidetracked and forgot to come back to this. Gog, I know you raised some issues here that need to be addressed (some of which I have not got to yet). Other than that, would you consider your copyedit complete, or on hold awaiting us to do some extra work?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:44, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

EnigmaMcmxc In so far as a copy edit is ever "complete", this one is. I will have a look over any future changes you make, and given that you seem relaxed re my contributions be bold about making any copy edits which I might feel would be helpful. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:27, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you as always for your input and helping whip this article into shape. On to GAN!EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 13:33, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Boldness

There are a couple of areas where I am being a bit bold regarding cutting back what I consider unnecessary detail. I am only the copy editor, so if you don't like it, please revert. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:31, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Liverpool Scottish in epilogue

@Kges1901:: Shouldn't the recently added material be more appropriate on the Liverpool Scottish page, since the division was briefly disbanded during this period? Or, as a note?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:40, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

• I wanted to show that not all of the division personnel demobilized at the same time, but I'll add it to the Liverpool Scottish page. Kges1901 (talk) 19:46, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

K.W. Mitchinson on the division

(2005). Defending Albion: Britain's Home Army 1908–1919. London: Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 9781403938251.

• "By 1911, most of the home defence schemes necessarily revised by the creation of the Territorial Force and Special Reserve were in place." (p. 45) "...the East and West Lancashire Divisions were to proceed direct to Irish Command." (p. 48)
• "One of the many mobilization problems was the need swiftly and efficiently to collect sufficient horses and wagons for the transport sections...vehicles and animals had to be impressed locally...registers of companies which owned horses were kept...but at the time when many firms were switching from horse to motor transport, many registers were years out of date. In contrast, the Liverpool Scottish in the West Lancashire Division acquired so many good beasts that a Regular battalion nearby immediately commandeered the entire collection and the Scottish had to begin all over again." (p. 56)
• "Brigades of the East and West Lancashire Divisions were scheduled to travel directly and independently to Ireland. Billeting parties had indeed left for Limerick and elsewhere as soon as the mobilization telegrams arrived late on 4 August, but in mid August, Kitchener announced that he would not send Territorial units to that troubled province. Relying on the Irish Reserve and Specia Reserve battalions to maintain order once the Regular units had been withdrawn, he wanted the Lancashire Divisions to be deployed more effectively. The Liverpool Brigade was despatched to join the Central Force's Second Army at Canterbury and the South Lancashire Brigade went north to augment the Forth defences. The two battalions of the Border Regiment attached to the division went to their war stations at Barrow, and in October left for France and India." (p. 58)

(2008). England's Last Hope: The Territorial Force, 1908–1914. London: Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 9780230574540.

• "With the exception of only a few units, particularly those of the Highland battalions, there was widespread concern about the physique of the men...While a large proportion of the troops in the West Lancashire, East Anglian and Home Counties Divisions were judged to be incapable of carrying their own kit, and physical training to remedy the neglects of a sedentary life was considered a prerequisite for improved efficiency, many associations as we have seen, were reluctant to spend money on gym equipment." (p. 167)
• "Two northern divisions, the West and East Lancashire, were tasked to travel to Ireland to replace the 6th Division and 3rd Cavalry Brigade. Their proximity to the port of Liverpool and the geographical ease with which they could be concentrated probably decided their depoyment but there was concern among the authorities that some of the King's Liverpool battalions might have rather too much sympathy with potentially rebellious sections of Irish society. There were also fears that given their very acute mobilization schedule the troops might arrive in Ireland half clad, each with only one pair of part worn boots, no transport, only 100 rounds and no reserve rations. The haste was necessary because Regular troops were required to leave Ireland between the fifth and eleventh days to join the BEF; in order not to leave the province denuded of troops, and the possible political crisis such an absence might induce, the Lancashire infantry brigades were supposed to arrive by the fifth day of mobilization. After protests and a staff tour, the War Office accepted that to expect all the infantry to arrive as promptly as that was nothing short of impossible. The largely single lines and limited rolling stock of the Irish railway network were incapable of simultaneously transporting the Regulars to the coast and the arriving TF inland to the Regulars' peace stations let alone to the positions they would need to occupy in case of a raid. Moreover, as the various Lancashire brigades would arrive without transport, it was 'courting disaster' to expect inexperienced TF troops to requisition civilian vehicles from a potentially hostile population. Even if Territorials did manage to reach their allotted war stations, the AOD announced it would be unable to issue them with camp equipment and stores. There was talk of erecting temporary wooden huts as emergency accommodation but that would take time and there would have again have to be a reliance on the inadequate railway links. The two divisions had no cyclist battalions, their signallers were poorly trained, there were no divisional ammunition columns and the province had no stored ammunition or spares for the TF's 15-pdr guns. Furthermore, there was no establishment for lines of communications, no no system for evacuating sick and wounded from from field ambulance to base hospitals and, as there was no National Reserve in Ireland whose members could be used as collecting officers, there was no established organization by which horses could be requisitioned. To avoid overly congesting Ireland's larger ports the War Office wanted the first two Lancashire brigades to arrive in a procession of small ships and at the lesser ports on the third day, the remaining four on the fourth, the artillery by the eighth and the Welsh Mounted Brigade by the ninth. Finally, if the units were not in possession of their full clothing quota at their departure date, they were to travel as they were." (pp. 183-184)
• "The decision not to send the two Lancashire divisions [to Ireland] must have been made on 5 August but it was not until Monday 10th that Asquith announced that the Government would rely on the 'willingness and patriotism' of the Irish (namely the Special Reserve and Extra Reserve Battalions) to defend their shores." (p. 202 - Mitchinson then repeats the deployment of the two W.Lancs brigades to Canterbury and the Forth defences)
• "Almost inevitably there were fistfights between Highlanders and the Lancastrians thei division had been forced to adopt..." (pp. 212-213)
• "Hamilton acknowledged the 'immense' divisional esprit he observed, particularly in the two Midland, Welsh and Highland Divisions, and argued that it would collapse if the divisions were dismembered for drafting. He perceived that loyalty to battalion and brigade rather than to division was more of a feature in the East Anglian and West Lancashire Divisions but still compared the formations favourably with the esprit, or lack of it, which he presumed existed in New Army formations." (p. 214)
• "Since it had been decided not to send the division to Ireland, the East Lancashire units had remained training and languishing in several muddy camps in their recruitment areas. Recruits had arrived but on 31 August Western Command was instructed to bring the division up to strength by transferring troops from West Lancashire units which were by then dispersed in a multitude of locations between the Forth defences, Oxfordshire and Kent." (p. 214)
• "Once it was agreed to send certain virtually complete TF divisions to the Empire, it was probably an easy decision to allocate the East Lancashire Division to Egypt. Its sister division, the West Lancashire, was not particularly highly rated and had been 2,900 below establishment in July." (p. 217)

(2014). The Territorial Force at War, 1914–1916. London: Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 9781137451590.

• "Training for several battalions of the London and West Lancashire Divisions was also severely disrupted by their deployment to guard sections of railway line. Platoons were spread out along the tracks to guard bridges and tunnels and rarely saw each other. In such circumstances, training was impossible." (p. 67 - This refers to the period after mobilisation, when the division was allocated to home defence and before its brigades were dispersed to other divisions)
• "When several battalions of the West Lancashire Division began to arrive in February, the time between disembarkation and posting to a brigade for some dropped substantially. Five of them had only between two and four days to become accustomed to France, but three others of the same division, all of which arrived at about the same time, were allowed either 11 or 16 days before being posted. The unusually short period of acclimatization allotted to 5/LNL, 5/South Lancashire and 5/, 6/ and 7/King's is suprising in view of the fact that Hamilton had noted in December that the West Lancashire Division was 'fully 20% behind the rest' in efficiency and training." (p. 79)
• "Although it may have regained its original infantry units, only a small proportion of the individuals arriving at 55th Division's assembly area were those serving when the battalions were first detached from the division months before. Five TF battalions of the King's Liverpool Regiment had sustained an average of 107 other rank fatalities since the outbreak of the war, with the 10th Battalion having suffered 239. Drafts had been received during 1915 and when the King's battalions arrived at Hallencourt they had an average of 27 officers and 663 other ranks. The last of the King's units to arrive, 6th Battalion, did not march in until 27th January, three days after 2/1st West Lancashire Field Company had left for attachment elsewhere. Jeudwine, the GOC Division, stressed the additional challenges facing the division as it trained and re-established its identity. Because the units had not yet built up support and liaison systems and the staff were still ignorant of the 'particular needs' of the formation, Jeudwine was content for the time being to lay down general principles and allow COs to interpret their spirit as they thought best. They were to encourage and develop the confidence of officers and men in themselves, their weapons, their comrades and commanders and put emphasis on the need for them to dominate the enemy. The training programme was gradually to work upwards from section, through platoon and company to battalion level. For those units just out of the trenches, the emphasis was on close order drill, care of arms and general smartening up. In order to improve all-arms efficiency, infantry brigades were paired with RFA brigades to practise liaison and cooperation. Although the weather was particularly unkind, the training areas offered few facilities and the division spent much of the period holding the line, the claim that 'very little training' was reported as having been undertaken by 9/King's during its five-month stint at Wailly is probably rather harsh. Despite the division's considerable reorganization, however, in March its infantry were reported as still being 3,000 under establishment." (p. 189)
• "...the rationalized [drafting] system and certain other means meant that the division managed to remain very much composed of men from Lancashire until the end of the war." (p. 192)
• "55th Division began to take heavy casualties immediately after its arrival on the Somme. One brigade submitted qa casualty return for for its attack on Guillemont in August of 51 officers and 537 ORs killed or wounded, and with the remarkable total of another 661 missing, over 500 of which were reported as 8/King's. Large drafts of more than 200 a time joined at least two battalions and within days the division was again in serious action. Its dead for September amounted to 804, with all but 8% of them born or resident in West Lancashire. Drafts had arrived from the East Lancashire and Manchester Regiments in August, with the result that all but a tiny percentage of the 8% were not from within Lancashire's boundary. The policy of posting local men whenever possible continued into 1917 where the division's losses during 3rd Ypres and Cambrai show that although there were men, especially in 165 Brigade, from Staffordshire, Surrey and Suffolk, the great majority of non-West Lancashire soldiers came from Cumberland or East Lancashire." (p. 203)

N.B. The erosion of the territorial identity after 1916 and the fact that the West Lancashire Division did not suffer this are important details that maybe warrant a sentence (see Territorial_Force#Erosion_of_the_territorial_identity for more info as it relates to the TF in general).

• "Some battalions of 55th (West Lancashire) Division virtually disappeared east of Epehy in what could be seen as questionable circumstances in late 1917 but, rebuilt, had sufficient guile, skill and determination to fight a magnificent defence of Givenchy only a few months later." (p. 217)

Hope the above helps. It's basically a dump of every meaningful mention Mitchinson makes of the 55th. It's primarily for info, and perhaps as a check against some of the older, near-primary sources currently used. I'm in no way suggesting that every detail be accommodated in the article, and leave it to editors' discretion what, if any, to use. Factotem (talk) 11:54, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Two GAN/GARs

G'day SandyGeorgia, earlier this year, this article was nominated at FAC and not approved due to its length and some flaws in the coverage of the First World War period. Since then, the article has been split and the two articles have been progressing through assessment. It passed GAN before the split and GAR after the split, which is why there are two GAN/GAR pages. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:48, 27 November 2020 (UTC)