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Why was there no mention of the role elements of the 302nd played in the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse?

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Why was there no mention of the role elements of the 302nd played in the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse? Geo Swan (talk) 20:49, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The suicide of James Stacy Adams and inquiries into the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse

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WRT the suicide of James Stacy Adams and inquiries into the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse:

  1. I added a paragraph about the January 2004 suicide of James Stacy Adams, the Battalion's senior NCO.
  2. Another contributor commented at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Stacy (US_soldier) -- voicing a concern that "a favorite saying" was not equivalent to "motto". That contributor made an excision that, as a side effect, delinked Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse.
  3. I restored that link when I rewrote the excised material, taking the voiced concerns into account.

The Fay-Jones Report interviewed many, or perhaps all, of the 302nd personnel who had been present at Abu Ghraib, at the time torture and other abuses were known to have taken place. Is there really any question that an article that comprehensively covers the battalion should neutrally cover this aspect of the battalion's history? Geo Swan (talk) 20:12, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Geo Swan. As the source provided did not state that Adams had committed suicide I've re-phrased this again: I note that the article on Adams did not include such a claim until you recently added it without providing any source. I removed the statement yesterday that "They questioned the extent to which his suicide was the result of sudden depression over the prospect courts martial would require him to testify against the men he commanded who had played a role in the Abu Ghraib Prisoner abuse scandal" as it is also not supported by any reference: what is your source for such a claim? When I Googled Adams and Abu Ghraib it didn't return any useful sources indicating that he had been named as having had a role one way or the other in the scandal. I removed the material on one of Adams' favourite sayings as it seems irrelevant to this article: on what grounds do you believe that it is relevant to covering this battalion? I agree completely that the article should cover the battalion's role in Abu Ghraib and share your surprise that it wasn't already covered - from looking at the article's history it seems to have started life as a copy-and-paste from a US Army website and has never received much subsequent attention, which is probably the reason this topic was left out. Nick-D (talk) 07:27, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Someone added a {{cn}} to the sentence that said James Stacy Adam's peers "questioned the extent to which his death was the result of sudden depression over the prospect courts martial would require him to testify against the men he commanded who had played a role in the Abu Ghraib Prisoner abuse scandal." However, the reference in that paragraph contained a quote field that said.

"Suddenly, just after New Year's Day, 2004, CSM Adams fell quiet. The official casualty report did not include the cause of his death. I lost a friend and a former colleague. Many questions remain unanswered in my mind, in particular whether knowledge of the ongoing Army investigation into his unit may have contributed in any way to his passing."

I suggest that the sentence I put in bold is sufficient citation for that sentence. If, after a reasonable period of time, I find no one has defended the {{cn}} tag, I will trim it. Geo Swan (talk) 18:12, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I added that (as I'm sure that you saw from the article history and my comment above). As that sentence clearly doesn't support the specific claims included in the article (eg, that there was a belief that Adams was facing being required to testify against the men under his command, was badly affected by this, and committed suicide) I've removed it: it's simply some vauge speculation by the author of the author of that article which doesn't appear to have been followed up in the subsequent years (implying that it either was unimportant in the scheme of things or turned out to not be accurate) and isn't anywhere near as specific as what was being attributed to it (also note that people with Adams' role are in charge of their unit's discipline, so if he did commit suicide could have been because he was facing adverse findings so there's no grounds to assume that it would be because he was facing being asked to testify against his men: most CSMs will actively prosecute soldiers in their unit who break the rules/law). As you haven't provided a rationale for including one of Adams sayings in the article I've also removed that as well as it's not relevant to covering this battalion. Nick-D (talk) 22:53, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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Unit Crest Symbolism

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I am concerned that the unit crest symbolism, while properly cited, might be in error. I served in the 331st ASA Co (fwd), which was subordinate to the 302nd, in the early 1980s. We wore that unit crest, and were taught a symbolism that differs from what is in this article. Specifics:

"White and teal blue, are symbolic of the battalion's former status as an unassigned-to-branch unit." -- we were taught that White and Teal Blue were in fact the Army Security Agency colors, just as red is for artillery and light blue is for infantry. See https://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Colors/US_Army_Branch_Colors.htm

"The battalion's war service as a signal unit is shown by the colors of the fox's mask and background" -- the Bn was called the "Sly Fox Battalion" and this was a reference to intelligence functions, not signals.

"while the intelligence functions of the unit are represented by the black censor's stamp." -- this is correct

"The key is for the unit's first campaign (Normandy) in World War II and also alludes to signal and intelligence functions." -- we were taught that this was 100% a symbol of the knowledge gained through intelligence. https://www.brown.edu/Departments/Joukowsky_Institute/courses/13things/7445.html I never heard mention of a Key representing the Normandy campaign. Although my ignorance isn't proof that it isn't so.

"The stylized lightning flashes symbolize radio reconnaissance." -- yes, although we called it "Special Intelligence" at the time. Rick Bunker (talk) 19:45, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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