Talk:2023 World Matchplay

Flags

The issue of whether or not to include flags in the infobox of darts tournaments articles was resolved here during the world championship. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:47, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

To quote MOS:INFOBOXFLAG "Examples of acceptable exceptions include infobox templates for military conflicts and infoboxes including international competitions, such as FIFA World Cup or the Olympic Games, or to list the national flag icon of an athlete who competes in competitions where national flags are commonly used as representations of sporting nationality in a given sport.

2023 Wimbledon Championships, 2022 Wimbledon Championships Please count how many flags are in the box here?

It's been working this way for years, and for some personal reason, you're trying to screw them up. Specifically, it exhausts vandalism. Szpity88 (talk) 22:01, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Participants in the FIFA World Cup and the Olympic Games are representing countries. There's only one tournament in the PDC calendar where players are representing a country. The World Matchplay is not that tournament. Also WP:OTHERCONTENT. "It's been working this way for years" is also an invalid argument.

A conclusion was reached in the talk page linked above, please read it and if you still disagree with the consensus reached, come back here and tag myself and the other participants in that discussion and explain why you think we're wrong. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 22:24, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

I read the indicated discussion page, but I didn't find an agreement, only agreement that you are repeating specifically meaningless things and screwing up what worked well until now, and which MOS:INFOBOXFLAG also refers to. I'll quote it again, in case you couldn't read it, even though I even highlighted it: or to list the national flag icon of an athlete who competes in competitions where national flags are commonly used as representations of sporting nationality in a given sport. I did not mention the FIFA World Cup or the Olympic Games here. I am mentioning the part of the INSTRUCTIONS that applies here and that YOU do not WANT to be aware of. MOS:INFOBOXFLAG indicates that an exception can be made in the infobox in some cases. Here, as with the tennis links, the flag is needed because the participant who won/achieved the best average/threw the biggest serve/won the tournament etc. achieved this in the current international tournament, and for identification there is a place for their national flag . It was no accident that I linked the tennis events, and it was no accident that YOU did not add anything to it. @Penepi@JRRobinson@John cena123@TheChrisD Szpity88 (talk) 23:04, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Darts players aren't competing for a nation, they don't qualify as a national representative. You did mention the World Cup and the Olympics here, what an odd thing to deny. Again, WP:OTHERCONTENT. I don't care about tennis, it has no merit in this discussion. Did Rob Cross throw a 170 while representing England? Flags aren't "needed". And funny you forgot to tag @Lee Vilenski, I'll help you out. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 23:25, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Not interested in tennis? I'm not interested either, but if I'm not interested, do different rules apply? How is it now? What you're doing is completely pointless, I gave a good argument why the flag is needed there, and you didn't even bother me with an answer. It's a good thing that he represents England, because that's his nationality. It is no coincidence that they are also marked during sports broadcasts, because we are talking about an INTERNATIONAL competition. Tennis players do not compete for a nation in a tennis tournament, and car drivers do not compete for a nation in a race. Your arguments are absolutely ridiculous. I asked for a third opinion and brought in an admin to help, because what you are doing is outrageous and unbelievable. Szpity88 (talk) 23:36, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

One of your arguments is "It's been working this way for years", which isn't an argument. Another argument is "tennis articles have it", which isn't an argument, as pointed out several times. Your sole relevant argument is moot because Rob Cross is playing in a singles tournament and is not in fact representing a nation. The nation he is from has absolutely no bearing on how he qualified for this tournament, and has no bearing on who his opponents are. Why don't we include his age and weight of darts in the infobox as well? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 23:46, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Man, stop trivializing this whole thing. It has been going well for years, that was not my argument, but I would like to point out that this is a common practice, which puts MOS:INFOBOXFLAG among the exceptions!! I didn't bring up tennis as an argument either, but to show that you don't help the editing process, you just ruin it. I brought up as an argument that yes, he represents his nation in the tournament and the flag does have a place in the infobox because of its identification, and it is not incidentally important information. That's why I brought up other sports where we follow the same standard in the editing process, and if we're talking about arguments, please answer why it works everywhere else? Why do darts "stab" your eyes? Szpity88 (talk) 23:57, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Explain how he is representing England in the tournament. Did he qualify through his nationality? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 23:58, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Should I answer the questions as you do? This is the big argument on your part. How do you represent your country? Maybe because his nationality is English? Do you only represent your country somewhere if you made it because of your nationality? I've been to many math competitions, internationally too, but I didn't make it because I'm Ukrainian, for example, but because I did well in math! However, I still represented my country at the international competition, because it was an international event. Not a World Championship, but a simple international event. If they hadn't highlighted my nationality, it would have been bad even for a joke. Are you getting excited? Szpity88 (talk) 00:05, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

If Cross was representing his country, it would have been by qualifying through a national qualifier. But he didn't, he qualified by being the fifth ranked played on the Order of Merit, so he's not representing his country, and therefore his nationality is completely irrelevant to him checking out 170. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 00:11, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Like many flag deletionists before you, you have a way to restricted view, at odds why the real world, of what constitutes representing. It’s a much wider concept than being part of a national. Nationality is an inherent part of this sport. Nationalities of the players are constantly mentioned, shown on screen and national broadcasters pay much more attention to players from their own country.

The “national qualifier” argument is also a false argument thet people line you keep bringing up in these sort of discussions. For some reason, some (including you) keep this false belief that representation in sports can only be achieved through a national qualifier. That’s just not the reality. Even in international competitions that do have formal national teams/delegations, this is not the sole, not even general, way to determine its members. The national qualifier is generally only used by large countries having way too many competitors for way too few places in a competition (e.g. United States in Athletics competitions). For sportspeople from small countries though, just satisfying the relevant competition‘s entry conditions is most of the time the only requirement.

As I pointed out earlier though, representation is a much much less strict concept than you claim and there really isn‘t justification to ban flags from infoboxes here. Tvx1 06:44, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

So just to clarify, he's representing England but only on a philosophical level, a level I'm incapable of understanding in this specific instance in association with qualifying for a darts tournament. Should we include information of anybody else he may feel he is representing in the infobox, like his family, his sponsors or his chosen supplier? What about religion or their star sign? The national qualifier argument isn't a false one, it's the reality of how qualification for televised majors tends to work; he qualified because he's a very good darts player, not because he's a very good English darts player. The same applies for everybody else in the tournament, including Ratajski and De Sousa

You are the one trying to impose your false belief that every player believes he is representing his country of birth in a tournament, when in reality that is original research and a clear bias to one specific part of a man's identity. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 08:13, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Also it's funny how, without a hint of self-awareness, you say "Like many flag deletionists before you", and then fail to acknowledge that there could actually be an issue. You've never thought "wow this could be an opportunity to collaborate, listen, and improve WIkipedia", just blindly move forward as though objections don't exist in order to make the pages look nice with lots of colours, without any explanation of what they're there for or why they are deemed to be of such importance. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 09:19, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

It’s funny how you talk about collaboration when neither the linked discussion nor this one show any such intention from you. The only thing you’re open for is no flags in the infoboxes.

The representation is not some philosophical thing, but a mere non-national team one, yet still acknowledged by the sports organisers and given due credit in the coverage of the press. All the other aspects you keep mentioning in mistaken belief that they prove your right are utterly meaningless because these are not given any meaningful attention in the coverage of this sport. There are two things that are always there when watching darts, the players names and nationalities. Nationality is an inherent part of this sport and thus we can and should acknowledge that in our articles.

There are many prime examples that show clearly that representation does exist in this sport beyond just the world cup. Firstly Peter Wright, who because the British home nations are seperated could represent England or Scotland, has literally chosen to represent his country of birth in all events and likewise dual national Tony Martinez also chose his country of birth. Secondly Belarusian and Russian players are currently banned from competing in these international events because they don’t want representatives from these countries.

And your national qualifier arguments is very much wrong. For this tournament there simply was no qualifying event, the players were entered though two world rankings systems. Which is the principal system for all of these majors. And actually some smaller tournaments literally do have a home nation qualifier to determine a couple of the home nation’s representatives. But the crucial point is though that the existence of a national qualifier or the lack thereof has never been the criterion on Wikipedia to determine whether a sport has national representation, nor has it actually the universal standard in the real world. Even in events like the Olympics qualify through a world ranking or meeting an international minimum, nothing more.

There really is little difference between the workings of the sports of darts and of for instance tennis. Tvx1 11:35, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

"It’s funny how you talk about collaboration when neither the linked discussion nor this one show any such intention from you. " that's just a lie, I collaborated with TheChrisD to come to a compromise on this very issue!

"The representation is not some philosophical thing, but a mere non-national team one, yet still acknowledged by the sports organisers and given due credit in the coverage of the press" - so are the manufacturers/teams they are part of i.e. Unicorn. Shouldn't we be explaining why the nationality of a darts player is of such vital importance that a flag is included alongside virtually every single mention of each player? Shouldn't we be explaining what the flag actually is? Shouldn't we be explaining whether this is merely linked to their nationality or their darting federation? You can't just say "because that's the way it is", that's absolute nonsense.

"Peter Wright, who because the British home nations are seperated could represent England or Scotland" - a Scottish player representing Scotland, but could have represented England, and you expect readers to automatically be aware of this information? How does the reader know Russian and Belarussian players couldn't qualify, are the readers just expected to know this?

"For this tournament there simply was no qualifying event, the players were entered though two world rankings system" so you're saying players qualified on merit and their nationality had nothing to do with it? Interesting theory and definitely explains the flags littered all over this page with no explanation of why or what they are, or what they represent.

"There really is little difference between the workings of the sports of darts and of for instance tennis." - literally don't care, and literally doesn't automatically mean all tennis articles are 100% correct either. WP:OTHERCONTENT.

All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 12:20, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

I dislike re-hashing points when it's clear the argument isn't being heard, but I will try one more time. "...or to list the national flag icon of an athlete who competes in competitions where national flags are commonly used as representations of sporting nationality in a given sport..." Participants don't have to specifically be representing a nation in a competition nor qualify BECAUSE of that nationality to represent their nation. However, single-effort sports (e.g. darts, cycling, golf, tennis, athletics) use registered nationality as an identifier for their participants, whether or not the National team is represented as a whole.

I will not cite other article infoboxes as examples (the WP:OTHERCONTENT defence). Instead, allow me to provide a real life example to prove the exception is relevant. Here is the registration form for the upcoming Antwerp/Belgium Open[1], a WDF-sanctioned, single-entrant darts competition. I direct attention to the "Contestant Details" section and, specifically, the "Country" field. Further, on the registered entrants list here[2], participants are listed by name AND nationality. Therefore, single entrant competitions do recognize participants based on sporting nationality, even though a NATIONAL team isn't participating in a wider-event.

I do not know what the PDC's registration form looks like, nor events for tennis, cycling, golf or a laundry list of other sports, though I would likely conclude that they utilize a similar field on their registrations because of requirements of their relevant sports/corporate governing bodies. John cena123 (talk) 15:52, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

The argument is being heard, I'm trying to advance the argument from "oooh look at the flags, tennis has flags too" to trying to establish what the flags are and what they represent. It's all well and good having flags but if they serve no purpose and provide no information beyond the image itself, then what actually is the point in having them? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 17:15, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I let the topic go, on the basis of "a smart man lets a donkey suffer". You're right, no flags! Good luck in life with incompetent behavior Kesha! <3 Szpity88 (talk) 15:01, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

There is no personal attack behind this, because I realized that you are right! But please don't delete other posts! It violates my free speech rights! Szpity88 (talk) 20:34, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Please remove this personal attack, and try and continue the discussion like an adult. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 20:36, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I apologize, I didn't mean it as a personal attack, you can't do that if you feel like it, but don't violate my rights! We tried to talk to you like adults, but you are not a partner in this!

I linked my talk page, the answer is there. If you can't understand this, then think about who can't think like an adult! Szpity88 (talk) 20:46, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

No more questions! If you can appear on the Tennis pages for this reason, then here too! I expect nothing but consistency!!!!!

READ:

User talk:Szpity88 Szpity88 (talk) 20:41, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Have you figured out what the flags in darts articles mean yet, and why they are a necessity? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:00, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

That is exactly what happens in darts. One, it is an international competition in which you cannot compete unless represented by a nation per the governing bodies bylaws. You must register to be able to play. And two, the national flag is shown in every event and every source. Szpity88 (talk) 21:04, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

"you cannot compete unless represented by a nation" - so the nation is representing the player? I thought the player was representing the nation? Which governing bodies? Please explain how this works. 👍Oh and there are no flags in this source? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:08, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't know this source, so you may have linked to some 'cheap' category site, which may have editors like you. The most important sites and broadcasts related to the sport are always indicated in every case. for example this But as I wrote, I only expect consistency, not meaningless answers. Szpity88 (talk) 21:19, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Which governing bodies? Please explain how this works. 👍 All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:20, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Are you talking about adult behavior while deleting all my warmest wishes from my comment? You are impeding my freedom of speech man. I hope a competent editor/owner/admin sees your attitude to the topic and everything. We have presented all relevant arguments here. It's not flags that have no place here, it's you. I have to link a thing: MOS:INFOBOXFLAG ("or to list the national flag icon of an athlete who competes in competitions where national flags are commonly used as representations of sporting nationality in a given sport.") DON'T OBSTRUCT MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH! All my warmest wishes: Szpity88 (talk) 21:28, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Why can't you tell me which governing bodies? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:30, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

We have written everything why flags are needed. We don't have to comply with you, we have to comply with the guidelines. Szpity88 (talk) 21:32, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

So this prevents you from naming the governing bodies? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:37, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

No, of course it won't stop you. In all cases, the governing body is either the PDC, the PDPA, or the DRA. In their regulatory system, nationality is indeed important for registration. All that aside, I'm seriously asking: we're arguing over a 3x1 pixel piece, when it's standard practice on wikipedia. I KNOW that it is not an argument that it works like this in tennis ot etc, for example, but please answer why it works there and in other sports? Szpity88 (talk) 21:43, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Neither the PDPA or the DRA are governing bodies. But let's ignore that factual inaccuracy. as you've named the PDC. And how do they run darts? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:51, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

No, that makes no sense. I have argued more with you in these 2 days than with my wife. Have a nice evening. With all due respect: István Kiss Szpity88 (talk) 22:01, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

It makes no sense to explain how the PDC run darts? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 06:15, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

No one owes you an explanation. I think the point is clear: MOS:INFOBOXFLAG. And I assume being annoying is what you wanted to achieve: you succeeded. Congratulations. All my warmest wishes, PreciesJJ. PreciesJJ (talk) 09:46, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I must say that by now I'm pretty clueless to what is happening here now. On one side I see a contributor who keeps treating people disagreeing with them with disdain instead of communicating in an adult, respectful manner. On the other side, I see a series of replies that appear to stem from the same person, but have been signed by three different accounts already.

I will try to respond to the two question I do think I was able to discern. The first is what the flags are supposed to mean. Well that's obvious, the nationalities the players compete under, something that is universally acknowledged within this sport. Secondly, why doesn't this source doesn't use any. Well that's really simple as well. That is just a plain text report. It doesn't use flags because of the same reason we don't in such instances. Flags don't belong in prose. That source is simply irrelevant to this discussion.Tvx1 11:04, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

If it's the nationalities they compete under, rather than the nationality they are, why isn't this communicated in the articles? And why isn't it communicated in the article what the flags actually are? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 17:41, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Holy Jesus

Do people really have nothing better to do than lobby for change on a triviality for more than 3 days? The time could be spent actually improving the quantity and quality of information in the encyclopaedia, rather than debating flags. Or school, a job, loved ones. But no, instead this. Simultaneously hilarious and depressing.

Just keep the flags in and crack on with more productive stuff. 167.98.155.89 (talk) 14:52, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Original research

Hi @Penepi, do you know what original research is? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:58, 23 July 2023 (UTC)