Talk:2023 Spanish general election

Citizens (Cs) and Spanish nationalism

To Impru20 and any/all other editors that would like to comment on this. I saw you removed Spanish nationalism when I added it next to Citizens/Cs in the "Parties and candidates" saying, "Not specially noteworthy as a party trait: all the country's main parties have some form of Spanish nationalism included. Here we don't list all the ideologies, just the main ones. Would also seem biased to make this noteworthy only for Cs". I disagree, at least in part. Firstly, it’s the only other ideology cited in the infobox on the party's page and is supported by 3 citations. Secondly, no, not "all the country's main parties have some form of Spanish nationalism included", PSOE don't, Sumar don't, Podemos don't, Más País don't, etc. I'm not saying we should, or have to, list all the ideologies for all the parties, and agree with you in that regard, but it’s literally adding one more ideology going from 1 to 2. There are multiple other parties listed with 2 ideologies or even more given than that. And as it currently stands the party is in a very slim minority among all the parties listed in only having one single ideology provided for it. I respect if this may go against your personal views or opinion, but it’s cited by third-party sources and is no different to adding an ideology for any of the other parties that is cited in the infobox of any of their pages. So, for the sake of fairness and neutrality I would respectfully ask that you please don't block this move unless a consensus against including Spanish nationalism for this party arises. Cheers. Helper201 (talk) 02:37, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Three citations, of which two are opinion pieces (one of them from Ara, a pro-Catalan independence media, and all three of them non-historical analysis published in the middle of the 2017 constitutional crisis with Catalonia... I seriously don't know why that is even in the party's infobox or with which consensus has that been added, as that probably breaks a few WP:NPOV rules with a very poor sourcing, though this is not the venue to discuss that). The point here is that it's absurd to highlight "Spanish nationalism" as an ideology in a Spanish election: all main parties, in one form or another, are Spanish nationalistic, so it's rather pointless to highlight this for one party in particular. You may realize that not all ideologies of all parties are highlighted here, only the main ones, in order to summarize and convey only the information that is relevant to the election. "Nationalism" is not a main ideology when it pertains to a country's election (i.e. we don't highlight that Macron's party is "French nationalist" in France, or the Sweden Social Democrats as "Swedish nationalist"), unless we refer to regional nationalisms (ERC, PNV, etc.) or specifities in that country's nationalism exhibited by the party (Vox, which unlike Cs has a very exaggerated Spanish nationalism as a core part of their ideology). Cheers. Impru20^talk 06:42, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

PS. Checking Citizens' article, looks like this was a leftover from past edit-warring in the article, which was added in an unconsensuated way (this explains the poor sources). In the past, other ideologies such as "populism" or "pro-Europeanism" were added as well, but were slowly removed. I've removed this from the article since doesn't look sufficiently sources to list it as an ideology in the infobox (though it can be described in the article's main text as an ideology that some media/people attribute to the party. But it's disputed).

This is a reason why only main, undisputed ideologies are listed in election pages. Political party articles are prone to political disputes and edit-warring on the exact meaning of the ideologies in place (Cs, Vox or Podemos are some examples). As such, only those ideologies that cover most of the parties' traits and are relatively undisputed are added. Hope this was clarifying! Impru20^talk 06:53, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

If that is the case that these sources for Spanish nationalism in regards to the Citizens party are from opinion pieces then I agree that does not justify the inclusion of an ideology supported by such sources (of which opinion pieces shouldn’t be used as sources for factual claims in the first place).

However, I disagree with your claim about "all parties being Spanish nationalistic", that's your own original research and not supported by any sources provided. I already listed multiple parties where that is not the case.

It is common practice that we keep to the ideologies given on each parties respective page. On that respective page ideologies are often supported by citations and the inclusion of whatever ideologies that are given has often come about through discussion, consensus, and/or evidence, or at least far more so than here. Unless reliable citations are provided here that explicitly say something other than what is stated on the party's page then I don't think any editor should be adding ideologies here that are not on that respective party's page. And even then, I think the ideology/ideologies should be added to that party's page first. Helper201 (talk) 22:25, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Original research pertains to content added to Wikipedia articles. I said that "all main parties, in one form or another, are Spanish nationalistic" in the context of a talk page discussion, to point out that all main Spanish parties have Spanish nationalistic traits. I am not arguing to add "Spanish nationalism" as an ideology for those countries (precisely, I am arguing for the exact opposite) so I don't understand what point you are attempting to convey here. As a side comment, note that Spanish nationalism is not even an article describing an ideology, but a political and historical tradition, which makes its introduction as an ideology even more absurd.

It is common practice that we keep to the ideologies given on each parties respective page. Yes, it is a common practice inaugurated by myself when I started adding these tables to Spanish articles describing party ideologies, and one that I have followed up to this date. As I noted you at Talk:Next Basque regional election#Party ideologies, it is not my fault that some (mostly IP) users have jumped in and changed those articles' infoboxes at leisure without any source or consensus. We should stick to both sourced ideologies and to ideologies that, while may not be sourced in the articles due to the fact that Wikipedia is not completed, can be sourced. You seem to stick to what infoboxes say right now without making a minimal attempt to figure whether that content is right in the first place, then coming here to blame me for (somehow) being actually consistent throughout the years. Impru20^talk 11:21, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Feijóo image

To impru20 and anyone of the editors of this page, the Feijóo’s image has a low quality compared to other candidates images, and it’s from October 2022, so i think it’s time to update the image for the next general elections. 84.126.112.198 (talk) 12:25, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I've cropped the photo that we have from March 2023: File:Alberto Núñez Feijóo 2023crop.jpg. Vacant0 (talk) 12:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Perfect, i think it’s very well but i hope other editors do not disagree with it 84.125.65.180 (talk) 14:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I reverted the previous change because it was a pic from April 2022 (previous from the current pic) and of equal or even worse quality. That March 2023 pic is cool, so I'll update the article ASAP! Impru20^talk 14:42, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

@Impru20: I uploaded some photos of Abascal from 2023, check them out and crop one of them for the infobox:

• Con Santiago Abascal votando 28 05 2023.jpg
• Santiago Abascal March 2023.jpg
• Con Santiago Abascal votando 28 05 2023 - 52931666456.jpg
• Con Santiago Abascal visitando la Feria de Caza 23 03 2023.jpg
• Santiago Abascal Toro Tv.jpg

Vacant0 (talk) 22:19, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with the current pic. Impru20^talk 07:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

@Vacant0, @Impru20, in case we choose a new picture I propose these two (the second one could be rotated to fit better). I think that despite being of an incredible resolution, the problem of the 2022 image is that it's more than one year old and that the picture is blurred, so I'm in favour of changing it. Cheers!

Basque mapping (talk) 22:23, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I support replacing the photo with the first crop. --Vacant0 (talk) 11:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

But it's not a crop. It needs to be cropped first. Impru20^talk 12:03, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

It's a CSS crop but I agree that they should be transformed into separate cropped images (eg. Santiago Abascal 2022b (cropped).jpg). Vacant0 (talk) 12:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

CS not contesting

Hi @Impru20! I think the addition of a section for parties not constesting is an interesting idea. Anyway, I'd like to point out that it isn't an unprecedented situation. For instance, we have CIC in 1979 general election, UCD in 1986 general election (I guess UCD also in many autonomous communities), EHAK in 2009 Basque election, UPYD in 2016 Basque election and CS in 2023 Melilla election. I'm pretty sure I've forgotten many more cases, so in case we accept this new format we should research in which cases the change must be also introduced. Cheers! :D Basque mapping (talk) 18:47, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I had not thought of those (in some of those cases the parties dissolved themselves previous to the election), but I think it would be useful to use this same format! Impru20^talk 20:30, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Map

I like this map for the election (specially if it can be improved to resemble something like this, this or this (particularly the list seat-part), but it has two main problems I see:

1. It's not consistent with maps for previous elections. If we are to add something like this, it would need to be applied retroactively to all elections since 1977, this is: we would need maps for all of these elections. Otherwise this would look weird and hard to compare between elections.
2. Language, obviously. This is the English wiki, so we would need an English version of the map(s).
3. Colours. Remind you about the actual colours in use for parties here in Wikipedia; we should stick to these as much as possible (except in cases where specific issues make it advisable to use a different colour for a party in maps).

What's the feasibility for this? Since I'm quite clumsy when it comes at designing these maps, I'm pinging the involved users that authored these so that we can have their feedback and help. Thanks! @Gust Justice @Erinthecute @沁水湾 @Quinnnnnby Impru20^talk 20:58, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

1. I am considering doing maps for previous elections in this style, and will do it if it is wanted going back to 1977.
2. I used Spanish for the map so that it can also be used on the Spanish wiki without it being weird that it's in English. I can try to either do a version for both English and Spanish or perhaps do a bilingual version with translations provided. I don't know which is preferable.
3. I think the colors used are the same as on Wikipedia. I will try to use the same as on Wikipedia, except where doing so would make two party colors too similar.

Regarding your other suggestions, I am open to add that pie chart and leader names those maps use. I don't know exactly what you mean by list seats? Do you mean a section of the map showing the largest party within each autonomous community? Gust Justice (talk) 21:11, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh no, with "list seats" I mean the part of the German map which shows regional seats (excluding FPTP seats, which Spain doesn't use), as well as the . Basically this map model but with the pie charts (think of the Polish or Bulgarian maps only if that helps). Maybe we can use the 2019 elections for testing purposes on a visual result of this? On the colours, I think the parties mostly use their colours except for PP, which in the map displays as a lighter sky blue one I think. For language, I think one map per language should be done (lest we risk cluttering one map with too much text). Fine will all other comments! Impru20^talk 21:43, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

I can add a section showing the largest party in each autonomous community similar to what Germany does for each state. I did change the color for PP to be the same as on Wikipedia and make some other changes like you. I have this map with the same format for the November 2019 election. I am aware it is a bit cluttered with the key. That can be optimised. Gust Justice (talk) 22:02, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

I like the November 2019 formatting (Is the autonomous community section possible? Or would it look too cluttered?). Think of using the acronyms for the key instead: aside of being simpler, it doesn't require for you to make a map-by-map translation of party names, since acronyms are the same for all languages). Impru20^talk 22:11, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi! I've tried to improve a bit the map. I think labeling each province is unnecesary and that we should include the rest of the parties. I wouldn't add the autonomous communities because there are already map of them. Sorry for overwriting the map. Please correct if I've messed the map. Basque mapping (talk) 22:12, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

@Basque mapping: Doesn't look bad either, but I would advise to work using the November 2019 election as a template (note that the current party selection for the 2023 election is provisional and may not reflect the final slate of parties at field). I agree with removing the province labels as well, since that also may cause issues with different languages. Impru20^talk 22:15, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

I like the key you made. I would personally prefer keeping constituency labels though. I will try to come up with an update and see what it looks like. Gust Justice (talk) 22:28, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

I like the end result as it's currently depicted! I have proceeded to add those to the November 2019 and 2023 articles. If you have time, you can work in previous elections as well. Thank you! :) Impru20^talk 07:35, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

The new map looks great. Vacant0 (talk) 13:27, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Gust Justice! I'd ask you to stop uploading more maps until we can reach a consensus in some aspects:

1) Is it really necessary to show the leaders?

2) Do we need to put the name of the provinces. And if we do, the name used in English, the official name or the name in Spanish?

3) It's better to use text rather than path. The file is less massive and easier to edit. Moreover, with the translation tool, it allows to make the map for multiple language without needing to upload a map per laguage.

4) Some aesthetic changes: Madrid smaller, the gradient thinner, make the circles smaller, when doing 3 circles place them in a row, and change the orientation of the key.

Plus, if we are going to go ahead with these maps, we should also make one for the senate election. Basque mapping (talk) 21:04, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for overwriting it I didn't notice you had done so. I have added some of the elements you included to the 2023 map, like the different font. I don't have the exact same style, but I am willing to discuss it.

1. Personally it isn't all that important whether or not leader names are featured in the election map itself. Most of my election maps do not feature them. I have included them since there is space for it, and a lot of election maps do include them. I am curious as to what the general opinion on this is.
2. I prefer having the name of the constituency, though I would be willing to forego that if there is a consensus against doing so. I have used Spanish language names of the provinces, which for the most part are the same as the English language names. There are 4 instances where the English name is different from the Spanish or local name, and 4 instances where the English name is the name used in a language other than Spanish. I would probably use the official name, which would mean those in Catalonia and Balearic Islands should use Catalan name, those in Basque Country Basque language name, and some of those in Galicia use Galician name.
3. The reason I converted some of the text to path is to make sure the text fit within the rectangles.
4. I included your smaller Madrid. I don't mind a thinner gradient, though I think the current layout is fine. I personally prefer the larger circles and making the layout be like it is, although this is for the most part just out of habit of using them like that. I disagree on inverting the orientation of the key. It kind of just feels wrong like you are reading right to left.
5. I think having Senate election maps would be useful especially for this election, though it wouldn't be the biggest of priorities due to the upper house's role being quite reduced in Spain.

Gust Justice (talk) 21:42, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Ok @Gust Justice, I think that the key can still be optimized but it seems ok for now. I'll try to add the translations in English and Spanish to show you how the file can be used in Spanish Wikipedia. I understand why you put in path the name of the parties, but the numbers should be text to make them easier to edit. Than you! :D Basque mapping (talk) 21:59, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

In the file I've kept the original layer as a hidden layer without the text converted to path. You can use that one when editing. I will make sure to keep the numbers as text though. I am not too familiar with the translation tool, but if you can work out a solution that makes the file automatically be translated depending on where it is used, then that would be welcome. Gust Justice (talk) 22:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Gust Justice! I'm so sorry for all the mess I've caused in the map, but I've finally been able to translate the file. I think the problem was that all the text must be in the same folder, so that's something we should be aware of. Please, be free to reorganize all the folders as I've changed a lot of things. For me the maps are just fine like this and I'll try to apply these changes to the previous maps. Again sorry and thank you! Basque mapping (talk) 18:33, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Before you do that for the previous maps I have made be aware that I am currently trying to update them to use the same format. Gust Justice (talk) 19:08, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@Basque mapping Do you know if the translation tool works? Translations don't seem to appear on Spanish language wiki. Gust Justice (talk) 20:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@Gust Justice As far as I know it should work. When I download it from Spanish wiki the text appears me in Spanish by default. I guess it needs some time to reflect the change. Let's wait some days. Basque mapping (talk) 20:59, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@Gust Justice For the provinces where due to the strong colour the text gets indistinguishable I'd recommend to use white. I'll change it in the 1977 map to show you what I mean. Basque mapping (talk) 21:15, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

I have done this. If you are able to do it, could you translate 1986 Spanish general election map? If so I would be able to use it for maps going forward. Gust Justice (talk) 01:49, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Nevermind. I don't know how to do it. Basque mapping (talk) 22:21, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Some thoughts:

1. Leader names are not a big deal for me, though I see they are included in most maps of these style that are made.
2. If constituency names are retained, I like the current setup in which these are made smaller.
3. Cannot opine on this.
4. I also like the smaller Madrid proposal.
5. Yeah, Senate maps are a long-term goal for me, but first we need Senate constituency results by election and those... can be a true headache (specially for earlier elections)
6. Remember to apply the changes to all maps once these technical issues are solved!

Thank you so much :) Impru20^talk 07:07, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Party VOX smeared as "far-right"...

while even the wikipedia article regarding this party describes them as "national-conservative". 62.226.83.228 (talk) 02:26, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

The party's article uses both terms and in the infobox cites several sources describing it as far-right. Gust Justice (talk) 14:53, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

let me guess... the "several sources" have a left-wing tilt themselves? 62.226.94.102 (talk) 22:45, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@62.226.94.102 You're free to read them yourself. Quite a lot of academic journals are cited, too. Would be quite difficult to argue against consensus unless you provided some reliable sourcing that the party isn't far-right – at which point you'd need to bring it up on the party's talk page. GnocchiFan (talk) 23:21, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Sumar is a far-left party alliance. wikipedia and most "reliable sources" still refuse to call them in such a way. Why is the smear term "far-right" used so much more often and common practise in mass media compared with the term "far-left" on the other side of the aisle?

Because most of the mainstream media outlets are part of the political left. Look at the US, 95 percent of party political donations from journalists during the election cycle 2016 went to Democrats, not Republicans. 62.226.76.179 (talk) 22:34, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Infobox

I ask for editors to revert the recent edition changing the infobox to a 4 largest national parties. Spain is a Parliamentary democracy, not a presidential one, so regional parties have relevance. This edition is nonsense and breaks with what has always been done in the Spanish elections. 84.126.112.198 (talk) 07:25, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Totally agree. I have reverted it. Impru20^talk 08:06, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

I second this. Vacant0 (talk) 09:22, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

I am okay with the revert as this is consistent with other articles. My only issue is that it seems arbitrary that the six largest parties are the ones included regardless of size. For example Basque Nationalist Party is included in the infobox for 1989 where it got 5 seats, but is not included in the infobox for November 2019, where it got 6. I guess this is just a consequence of the fact that Template:Infobox election can only include 6 parties without looking cluttered. Gust Justice (talk) 07:23, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Sumar Més

@Impru20 Since you're the most relevant contributor, shouldn't Sumar Més be displayed independently as it's done with "Sumem per guanyar" and "Sumar-ECP"? Tidjani Saleh (talk) 09:51, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

No, it shouldn't as of currently. I've explained it several times in the edit summaries: it shouldn't unless it's confirmed to be shown independently in the election results (something we won't know until 23 July). The most significant precedent is Units Podem Més, which wasn't shown separately by sources for the 2016 election (unlike ECP, ALV and Marea, which were). "Sumem per guanyar" and "Sumar-ECP" have been provisionally separated based on the 2015, 2016 and 2019 precedents, which did separate these confluences for Unidas Podemos; however, if they aren't ultimately shown independently by sources, they will be merged into the main row. The criterion for doing this to avoid separating what sources do not explicitly separate. Impru20^talk 13:05, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your confirmation! I assume they will appear as separate but it sounds wise to wait until it's confirmed. Tidjani Saleh (talk) 20:33, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

@Impru20 I have found Sumar's coalition agreement at the Junta Electoral Central where it details the different abbreviations and names used by Sumar for every constituency, available here. It would have the following denominations:

• Catalonia: SUMAR - EN COMÚ PODEM (SUMAR - ECP)
• Valencian Community: COMPROMÍS - SUMAR: SUMEM PER GUANYAR (SUMAR - COMPROMÍS)
• Galicia: SUMAR GALICIA (SUMAR)
• Canary Islands: SUMAR CANARIAS (SUMAR)
• Aragón: SUMAR ARAGÓN (SUMAR ARAGÓN)
• Andalusia: SUMAR ANDALUCÍA (SUMAR)
• Balearic Islands: SUMAR MÉS (ARA MÉS - SUMAR)
  • Mallorca (Senate): SUMAR MÉS (MÉS MALLORCA - SUMAR)
  • Menorca (Senate): SUMAR MÉS (MÉS MENORCA - SUMAR)
• Rest of Spain: SUMAR (SUMAR)

I assume that based on this we'd see the following divisions on the website of the electoral commission:

• SUMAR
  • SUMAR - ECP
  • SUMAR - COMPROMÍS
  • SUMAR ARAGÓN
  • ARA MÉS - SUMAR (Congress)
    • MÉS MALLORCA - SUMAR (Senate)
    • MÉS MENORCA - SUMAR (Senate)

Hope this information is useful! Tidjani Saleh (talk) 19:24, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Political groupings

Does any other country have a tendancy that the Left are in favour of Federalism, while the Right are in favour of Centralization? --95.24.71.129 (talk) 18:39, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Germany and Italy come to mind. Keep in mind WP:NOTFORUM though. Couruu (talk) 09:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

the spanish left does not support "federalism", they support seperatism. The right does not favor "centralization", they support national unity.

In Germany the left embodies big government centralism while the right back the federal right of the 16 different german states. 62.226.94.102 (talk) 22:44, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

NOTFORUM, IP. Not the place for such discussions. Couruu (talk) 09:59, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Spanish Elections Winner

It's probable that Mr. Alberto Núñez Will win elections. 88.2.49.6 (talk) 18:50, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

The Partido Popular almost certainly will win the most most seats, but it is not at all clear, nor the role of Wikipedia, to conclude what government will be formed. Gust Justice (talk) 19:23, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Agreed with above. Changed the incoming PM to TBD until there are multiple, reliable references as to which bloc will form a government. Dn9ahx (talk) 09:48, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Results section

Should Jaén Deserves More (JM+) be grouped together with Empty Spain given the fact that it seems to be affiliated with it? @Impru20 Gust Justice (talk) 12:05, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@Gust Justice: It isn't affiliated with it anymore! Impru20^talk 09:08, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah you're right. I've updated the article for Empty Spain. Gust Justice (talk) 18:47, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Do we have the results of the outstanding CERA votes being released?

Or are these numbers already included in the current numbers showing the PP party at 8.09 million votes? 80.131.54.186 (talk) 01:06, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Article shows a left-wing tilt

Why is the Vox party being called "far-right" but the heavily left-wing Sumar alliance not in the same way labelled "far-left"? Either smear terms on both sides of the aisle or neutral coverage for all. 80.131.54.186 (talk) 01:11, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Choice

Do the lists of parties in the ballot differ between constituencies, or does every voter receive the same huge ballot with all the regional parties from faraway places? --95.24.62.107 (talk) 21:53, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Voters can only vote for party lists contesting that particular constituency. Gust Justice (talk) 22:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Infobox icons

Hi all - I am wondering why the increase/decrease/steady icons in the infobox for this article (and all those related to Spanish elections) don't use the standard {{increase}}, {{decrease}}, and {{steady}} templates. The templates allow for increased accessibility and flexibility, and are used in nearly every other election article across Wikipedia. I will note that my previous attempt to include these templates was reverted by Impru20. Is there a pre-existing consensus to use different iconography solely for Spain? If not, I would like to propose bringing these articles in line with the rest of the encyclopedia. WMSR (talk) 03:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

There is a pre-existing consensus, materialized in the accepted use of this iconography for many years in these articles by many users. Accessibility is not an issue as the iconography meets the MOS requirements, the issue here being more one of personal preferences, if anything. Of course it can evolve and/or change, but it's not true that these are not accessible right now or that the templates are the only alternative. Plus, with the current icons you can make whatever adaptation that it's needed, whereas for the templates you cannot do any adaptation without editing the templates themselves (which would affect an even larger amount of articles; not sure where the alleged "flexibility" comes from). Thus, I contest basically all of the aforementioned points.

On the mention of my revert: considering the precedent, and in light of what I just said above, one would say that WP:DROPTHESTICK would be the best course of action. Impru20^talk 09:22, 30 October 2024 (UTC)