Talk:2023 Indian wrestlers' protest

Biased article

The article only presents the viewpoints of the wrestlers while it has miserably failed to present the considerations of the accused. Even after the accused has done multiple press conferences. 2405:201:4029:EA8F:B541:47C0:55A1:74DD (talk) 10:42, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Response by the accused has been added in the article. Rajput Mahasabhas supporting the accused is added in the article too. ParanormalRat (talk) 09:57, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Please add History of brij bhushan singh

. Batman2314 (talk) 06:50, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

@Batman2314 It is in the Brij Bhushan's wiki page. ParanormalRat (talk) 09:58, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Why romoved?

Why removed name of SUCI party? জয়শ্রীরাম সরকার (talk) 06:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Reactions

The Domestic reactions section has been cleaned up but it cannot stay like this for ever. This is not an exhaustive list of who supported this protest and who didnot. I propose merging all the support into a general statement with 2-3 examples, not the current state. >>> Extorc.talk 17:02, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

After(/if) it grows unwieldy, it can be spun off into its own "Reactions to 2023 Indian Wrestler's Protest page", with shorter version left here.

(Ideally, After the current-event is resolved) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ KnowMonger (talk) 11:53, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

No requirement for a separate page unless this page goes over 100kb. This section just needs to be trimmed. >>> Extorc.talk 12:24, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

@DaxServer, what is your take on this? >>> Extorc.talk 14:22, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Overcite

@Divya Kadyan This article already has WP:CITEKILL issues and you are adding YouTube videos as citations which are not needed. Kindly revert your edits. >>> Extorc.talk 11:49, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Conditions of protest site are of any interest?

I am not sure so posting on the talk page. The conditions of the protest site might be relevant to this wiki page. ParanormalRat (talk) 15:10, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Feels less relevant to the article, I can't really say 🤷, as people usually face such issues (heat/mosquitoes) either way ... especially in the Indian sub-continent. KnowMonger (talk) 16:01, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I dont think this is relevant at all. All protests face this issue. Protests aren't really supposed to be a walk in the park. >>> Extorc.talk 16:48, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Removal of International coverage

@Hey man im josh Sorry to include you out of nowhere in this talk page, need your opinion.

There is a media coverage section about the Indian Wrestler's protest, The international coverage was added twice,

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023_Indian_wrestlers%27_protest&oldid=1158208414#:~:text=137%5D%5B138%5D-,International%20Coverage,-The%20allegations%20and

first as a statement with publication houses, then, 2nd time with sources directly linking to articles on those publication houses

but its been deleted twice by @DaxServer: requiring sources... ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Indian_wrestlers%27_protest#:~:text=misused.%5B135%5D-,Media%20coverage,-%5Bedit%20source

I might be missing something, care to comment ? KnowMonger (talk) 16:54, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure why I was pinged to this discussion. Your best bet, in the future, is to start a talk page discussion and ping the editor to that discussion (as you've done) to ask for their explanation and begin a discussion. This is a content dispute and I don't have a particular interest in getting involved, nor should I since I've been canvassed here. The dispute resolution noticeboard is available as an option if you two cannot settle the dispute. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:01, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

@Hey man im joshSorry to include you in the discussion, was looking for a neutral set of (experienced) eyes.

Was looking at @DaxServer's talk page, your name (randomly) stood out 😄,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DaxServer#:~:text=%5Bsubscribe%5D-,Your%20draft%20article,-%2C%20Draft%3ASetu

Didn't know about the dispute resolution thing 😅,

(I might be biased as I did the effort of finding reliable references and adding them to article;

@DaxServer might be biased for whatever reason the section is being deleted.

Saw in the above "Reaction" section that usernames were being called out randomly for comment,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2023_Indian_wrestlers%27_protest#:~:text=%40DaxServer%2C-,what,-is%20your%20take

so I thought that was the convention. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(p.s. I do recognize the irony (of further replying and thus including you in the discussion 😆)) KnowMonger (talk) 17:29, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

@KnowMonger The content we add should be verifiable and duly supported by reliable sources. You are doing an original research (OR) which is not allowed. Please read WP:BRD and the onus is on you to achieve consensus to add the content. I'll be removing the OR. Any further reverts would be seen as edit warring. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 19:56, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

The coverage by the international media should be discussed by reliable secondary sources - which is not happening now. Adding citations to news reports and stating that they had coverage is an original research - which is why I removed it. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 20:02, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the section should be re-added. >>> Extorc.talk 21:39, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

NPOV issues with Allegations section

Because they are just that, allegations. We shouldn't be giving this much weight to information that pertains to one side of the dichotomy while we don't give much weight at all to the rejection of allegations and demand of proof from the side of Brij Bhushan. I say we remove the individual wrestler log of harrasment and just keep the first paragraph of the section and rename it as "Background". @DaxServer >>> Extorc.talk 05:09, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

pinging @Bookku, @ParanormalRat >>> Extorc.talk 09:43, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Which section are you talking about? And I think you can add about the rejection of allegations at appropriate places. ParanormalRat (talk) 10:02, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Ohh, now I see you were talking about the Allegations section. Sorry for the miss. I think it will be best to summarize the allegations and write that the accused has repeatedly denied them. I think it is fine if you go for it @Extorc ParanormalRat (talk) 10:05, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Alright, I will act on this soon. >>> Extorc.talk 10:08, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

@Extorc I wanted to update my reply to this, "Ohh, now I see you were talking about the Allegations section. Sorry for the miss. I think it will be best to summarize the allegations and keep the individual wrestler statements as you have mentioned and write that the accused has repeatedly denied them. Mentioning that they told the PM about the allegations is important I think as "government trying to save the accused" is an important theme. I think it is fine if you go for it and edit as you proposed @Extorc" but couldn't due to edit conflict. Please consider the updated reply. Thanks. ParanormalRat (talk) 10:11, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

That is okay. I have made an edit. You can look at it and expand it as seen necessary. My main contention was the pointwise addition of allegations. >>> Extorc.talk 10:22, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Looks good. You did not add the accused denied the claims. I think we can remove the "Statement of the accused" section and add all that to the "Background" section you created. ParanormalRat (talk) 10:27, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

I shifted the statements of the accused in the Background section. ParanormalRat (talk) 10:40, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Refs

• https://indianexpress.com/article/india/2-india-wrestlers-1-top-referee-1-state-coach-4-witnesses-who-corroborate-8643190/?utm_source=EchoBox&utm_medium=Referral

Bookku (talk) 07:42, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Undiscussed and unexplained reverts

@Portwoman, Will you please explain yourself and your revert here. Why did you remove "Bhushan has rejected all allegations in front of a government appointed committee" which is sufficiently sourced and not adding it creates WP:NPOV issues. You also reverted my restructuring of the lead. I had added

In January 2023, Indian wrestlers began protesting for the custodial investigation into the allegations of sexual harassment against BJP MP Brij Bhushan Sharan Singh by female wrestlers during his tenure as the president of the Wrestling Federation of India (WFI). The female wrestler complainants accuse Bhushan of demanding "sexual favours" for getting professional help, groping, touching breasts and navel without consent, instances of stalking and intimidation, which has led to a "shared sense of fear and trauma" among the women wrestlers.

We must add the motivation of the protest followed by the complaints. These are protests for investigation and not against harrasement as the following sources demonstrate.

• Indian wrestlers are protesting ... demanding the arrest of the chief ... for alleged sexual abuse ~ BBC
• The protesting wrestlers...have demanded the resignation and arrest of ..., Brij Bhushan Sharan Singh ~ NYT
• threatened to hand back their medals, accusing the authorities of ignoring their allegations of sexual harassment against the sport’s top official ~ Guardian

It is consistent practice among protest articles to mention the motivation of the protest in the lead sentence as the following articles demonstrate<

• 2020–2021 Indian farmers' protest - The .. protest was a protest against three farm acts that were passed by the Parliament.
• 2020 Kashmiri protests - The .. protests .. and demanded accession and an end to killings and the 2019-2021 Jammu and Kashmir lockdown.
• 2019 India doctors' strike - .. following the assault .. junior doctors in Kolkata .. demanded that the Chief Minister of West Bengal, Mamata Banerjee, should intervene .

>>> Extorc.talk 07:51, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

You also restored "The protests have received widespread support from across the country from all walks of life, including politicians from various political parties, Indian athletes, khaps and farm unions as well." which is complete WP:OR and no secondary source mentions that at all. All we can add is support from Farm unions, politicians and veteran sportspersons. >>> Extorc.talk 09:44, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Regarding "The protests have received widespread support from across the country from all walks of life..." aren't there enough sources to prove the same? Portwoman (talk) 11:42, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

@Extorc +1 for your proposed change of motivation behind the protest in the very first line of lead. ParanormalRat (talk) 10:15, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

I think we should write the accused denied the allegations in the first paragraph itself of the lead section. ParanormalRat (talk) 10:23, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Extorc,

My question is :

1) Why have you removed the part "The protestors are demanding the arrest of Bhushan for a custodial investigation into the allegations..." ; it is very much well sourced.

2) Why add the part "Bhushan has rejected all allegations in front of a government appointed committee".. in the lead section? It can very much go in the article but not in the lead.

Regards,

Portwoman (talk) 11:48, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for responding.

1. I removed it because I added it to the lead sentence itself. "Indian wrestlers began protesting for the custodial investigation into the allegations of sexual harassment" This is sufficient, leaving the now-removed statement would be repetitive.
2. I added that part because it is fundamental to maintain WP:NPOV to report both sides when the sources dont take a side in their own voice. Here, where everything is an allegation over the other, its our job to put both.

>>> Extorc.talk 15:44, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Will you address the WP:OR that I am pointing to or should I assume you have conceded? If the latter, then please stop restoring it, as you did here. @Portwoman >>> Extorc.talk 16:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you on this one. Portwoman (talk) 04:05, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

MoS/Legal

Though I have been pinged, I do not see immediate need for me to comment above. But most Wikipedian editors are unaware about WP:policies regarding legal aspects hence like at other discussion pages I would like to note WP has couple of existing policies like MOS:LEGAL. But in my personal opinion MOS:LEGAL needs some updates regarding the same I had initiated a discussion @ WT:MOS/LEGAL. Bookku (talk) 10:45, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Vinesh detained wrestlers protest.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:38, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Clarification on Summer Olympics 2020

@Portwoman the wiki page of the event clarifies the confusion. Summer Olympics 2020 happened in 2021 in Tokyo. So the event mentioned in wrestler protests happened in Tokyo in 2021. ParanormalRat (talk) 05:46, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh I see, thanks for your help.

Portwoman (talk) 08:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Your revert

Hi @Extorc. You made this edit saying look at the talk page, but there is no discussion about it in the talk age. The changes you have reverted were made by @Rhododendrites in this edit. At least the edit you reverted seemed reasonable (please check the reason given). ParanormalRat (talk) 05:53, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I was referring to the bottom part of that edit, the "widespread support" >>> Extorc.talk 05:59, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Repeated usage of "the accused"

We already established Brij Bhushan is being accused. Thru out the article, there's a repeated tone of referring him as "the accused" and is rather bizarre. We refer to people by their names or their pronouns but not with other labels. This as a serious WP:BLP and WP:NPOV violation. Please refactor to MOS:SURNAME/MOS:GIVENNAME, whichever is relevant — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 19:46, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

The NPOV situation of this page is an ongoing work. It has improved. Will look into this as well. >>> Extorc.talk 20:42, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

why remove sourced content ?

@Extorc , may I know why the below "well-sourced" part was removed ?

The accused Singh on 18 May 2023, stated that the wrestlers' Olympic medals were worth INR 15. Portwoman (talk) 05:06, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

MSN is not at all well sourced @Portwoman. Please refer to this discussion. >>> Extorc.talk 05:49, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Have replaced 'MSN' source with reliable one's. >>> Portwoman (talk) 08:03, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

References