Talk:2021 Women's Rugby League World Cup squads

Format of squad tables

@Nhoj1898 just wondering if the squad table formatting could be simplified to use the current version of the France squad as the template? The squads that have their NRLW stats and other (non-test) internationals seem to have a lot of extraneous information for this article. Storm machine (talk) 00:15, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Storm machine,

The layout of the tables reflect my wish to include additional information. One motivation is that the information is not readily available elsewhere. Whilst the NRL site is the source for the NRLW information, it doesn't provide the information in tables. Similarly, the European Rugby League website was the source for the information on many, although not all recent internationals, but again that site doesn't tabulate by player or have individual player records.

The Rugby League Record Keepers club has recently loaded Women's World Cup results with players and point-scorers where known. This is complete for 2000, 2013 and 2017 but has gaps for 2003 and 2008. I worked with Neil from RLRKC, and others associated with the RFL and NZRL to add this information to the site. I supplied extracts from my Excel spreadsheet database that I've been building up since May 2020. Due to time constraints, a decision was to restrict the RLRKC database to World Cup games for now, and add matches after it's conclusion.

The Rugby League Project website is also short of information on the women's international results, although complete for NRLW. I've previously spoken to site owner Andrew about adding international matches there.

A stumbling block for both sites, based on chats with Neil and Andrew, is that they weren't built for the idea of having multiple contributors with an easy user interface. So the upload of information is contingent on the capacity of one or two users.

Unfortunately, information about the Women's Super League is not available online in a single source. Some of the clubs do have information about their own players, but that is inconsistent. If it was, I would include that information for England. Same is true for the other nations and NZ domestic.

The plan is to expand information about Brazil when more information is uploaded to the RLWC and or NRL websites.

You make a good point about consistency, but hopefully the above rationale makes sense.

Another reason, is that it gives me joy to add this info, and make it available to those interested enough to visit this page, and to reflect the hours I've put in.

Regards,

John Moriarty (@Nhoj1898). Nhoj1898 (talk) 09:43, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

Hi @PeeJay

It seems prudent to provide you with a rationale for my innovation in using the tours infobox to list coaches, captains, leading scorers and results summary in this page. Reasons include:

Providing a summary that works well when viewed on PC/laptop/tablet and on a mobile device
Providing easy navigation between Cups, having this at the top of the page as well the bottom
As a personal preference as a page creator (2000, 2003 and 2021) and content provider (to all but 2008, tallying appearances, tries and goals and adding those to 2013 and 2017).

The effort taken in making my contributions on Women's International Rugby League includes

Contacting libraries in the UK and NZ to obtain imaged copies of the 2000 Programme and 2003 Almanack
Using Newsbank and ProQuest to search newspaper articles for articles (or snippets) with info about players debuting, playing and scoring tries.
Building a database in an Excel spreadsheet of matches, player appearances, tries and goals.
Reaching out, making contact and collaborating with people in England, New Zealand and Australia. This collaboration yielded imaged copies of match reports that originally appeared in the Rugby League Express and a copy of the 2003 Women's World Cup Programme
Watching YouTube videos of matches, where available, to identify appearances and try-scorers
Collaborating with Neil from the Rugby League Record Keepers Club to upload Women's World Cup appearances, tries and goals. This is where information is known. For the 2008 WRLWC we have teams for England and most but not all scorers, a near complete record for New Zealand, the Australian squad and some try-scorers, the Samoa squad but next to nothing of the other four teams.

All this is to provide you with some context in that I have made an effort as a contributor over the past 2 and a bit years, and to provide some credence to my preferance of retaining the tours Infobox in the squad pages.

I understand that you dislike the use of an infobox, and have expressed an opinion against its use.

Unfortunately, my option differs from yours. It appears [@Fleets shares my opinion.

That's two votes to one for the retention of the infobox. You're the first viewer of these pages to object to the use of the infobox, it would be reasonable to deduce that others either like the use, or at the very least accept and respect a contributors' decision to include it.

I would be happy to hear from you in in reply.

Regards

John Moriarty, [@Nhoj1898 Nhoj1898 (talk) 08:51, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi John, thanks for taking the time to write such a well-thought-out message. I appreciate that you've put a lot of work into these articles in your time on Wikipedia, but I'm sorry to say that doesn't give you any special aegis over them (per WP:OWN). In your message, I see just one good reason for keeping the infobox in its most recent state, and that would be the ease of navigation on mobile devices - as I'm sure you know, navboxes (at the bottom of the page) don't show up natively on mobile devices, so having a "Previous" and "Next" link that does show up is fairly sensible. However, the use of an infobox to record the teams' results on this page is not appropriate at all (an infobox is supposed to summarise the content of the article, and results don't show up anywhere in this one, so having a results table in the infobox is plain wrong), and frankly, the use of the infobox for the coaches and captains is a little spurious too. You could achieve the same result by adding a summary table to the page, with columns for "Team", "Coach" and "Captain", and the teams in rows below. This would avoid an issue the infobox currently falls foul of, which is that you are using the {{flagdeco}} template to indicate which team each coach/player belongs to, in contravention of MOS:ICON. At that scale, flags are too small to be able to identify properly, particularly those of Australia and New Zealand, which look almost identical, and that of the Cook Islands isn't far off either. By using a table, you could not only avoid this confusion by spelling out each team's name in the leftmost column, but also add other flags (if necessary) to the coaches to indicate their own countries of origin. I'll see if I can come up with a mock-up when I get home from work, but in the meantime, let me know what you think of what I've said. – Pee Jay 12:18, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, here's an example of what I'm proposing:

Team	Coach	Captain
Australia	Brad Donald	Kezie Apps Sam Bremner Ali Brigginshaw
Brazil	Paul Grundy	Maria Graf
Canada	Mike Castle	Gabrielle Hindley
Cook Islands	Rusty Matua	Kimiora Breayley-Nati
England	Craig Richards	Emily Rudge
France	Vincent Baloup	Alice Varela
New Zealand	Ricky Henry	Krystal Rota
Papua New Guinea	Ben Jeffries	Elsie Albert

Let me know what you think. – Pee Jay 14:30, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @PeeJay

I apologise for not responding sooner. Given my appeal calling out the time spent on the pages was acknowledged, but not to a point where my wishes were respected, I was considering what approach would be most likely to end your antagonism. At times over the weekend, I could think about calmly. At others I genuinely found it stressful.

To counter your point that a tours infobox has been co-opted for q tournament, I thought about creating a specific tournament squads infobox. To counter the point that the infobox is a summary of the information on the page, I would align the two. My worry in spending time to exercise this idea is that it is no guarantee against further criticism.

At less realistic idea was to appeal to logic. You make the point that my efforts provide me with no collateral. In that vein, after your edit removed the infobox, another user restored it. So if I must accept your decision to remove it, logically the wishes of another, third user to restore it must be accepted.

Your suggestion to include a summary table is noted. I'm not strongly opposed to it. A similar table is already on the tournament's main page. As previously stated, however my preference was to capture this information in an infobox.

Regards

John Moriarty (@Nhoj1898) Nhoj1898 (talk) 21:21, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Right, but according to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, the infobox is supposed to summarise the content that is actually on the page, not add to it. The win/draw/loss info is not on this page, so why are we presenting it? This isn't about my antagonism, this is about following Wikipedia policy, which the current infobox does not do. If you're opposed to the summary table (strongly or otherwise), then we won't have either the table or the infobox. – Pee Jay 21:43, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]