Talk:2021 FIFA Arab Cup squads

Algeria and Morocco A'?

@Faycal.09, Hashim-afc, Steel Dogg, and Ismail belkacem: In my opinion, we should just write Algeria and Morocco, without the "A'". It's true that a few months ago their federations announced that they would be competing with their A' teams, but it doesn't seem to be this way in effect. The A' teams are teams of exclusively local players, though both teams are sending players from other countries abroad. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:34, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi Nehme1499, Thank you for your message. At the base, Algeria and Morocco sent their A' (local teams). These teams serve as the reserve of the first team and their coaches are the assistants of those of the first team.

Regarding Algeria, the coach of the first teams Djamel Belmadi asked the coach of the local team Madjid Bougherra to take some players playing in the championships of gulf countries so that these players stay in shape, because these championships will stop during the period of the Arab Cup.

For me, its simply the A' (local team) wich is reinforced by some few players of the first team, and some others who plays in the arab countries that can maybe Djamel Belmadi need them for his first team. --Fayçal.09 (talk) 14:19, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Faycal.09: I understand, but from FIFA's perspective the teams are just Algeria and Morocco. There is no difference between those two teams and, say, Lebanon or Syria. Having A' makes it seem as if the games involving Algeria and Morocco aren't official (which isn't the case). Saudi Arabia also pretty much sent their U23 team, but it wouldn't make sense to call them Saudi Arabia U23, as it's a "self-imposed" limit by the Federation, not an obligated limit by FIFA. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:28, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499:, FIFA at the base sent invitation to all first teams, maybe because this it's mentionned only Algeria and Morocco. Lebanon and Syria sent their first teams, there is no A' (local teams) in Asia, there is only in Africa. And what about Saudi Arabia, there are some players of U-23 team called by the first national team manager Laurent Bonadéi, but Algeria and Morocco sent their A' (local team) with their technical, medical staff, ...etc. --Fayçal.09 (talk) 15:01, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: If there are players from foreign leagues then it can't be truly called the A' team. I would just write Algeria and Morocco, and add a note next to the coach's name to say that the coach of the A' team took charge for the tournament, and I would do the same for 2021 FIFA Arab Cup page as well. Hashim-afc (talk) 16:10, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Hashim-afc: I agree with your solution. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:12, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

I think if you put only Algeria and Morocco, it means that they represent the first teams, however that is not the case. --Fayçal.09 (talk) 16:34, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

It's the Algerian and Moroccan FAs' decision to send those players. No one stopped them from calling up other players. It's not like FIFA explicitly asked the FAs to send their (not so) local players. Most other teams have limited squads as well (Egypt only has local players, Saudi Arabia's team is almost the same as their U23s, etc.) Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:37, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes right, and Algeria's FA and Morocco's FA decided to send their A' local team reinforced with some players of the arab leagues. --Fayçal.09 (talk) 20:05, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Which, in FIFA's eyes, are Algeria and Morocco, not Algeria A' and Morocco A'. Saying "A'" is misleading, as it can give the false impression that, for example, Algeria A' vs Lebanon is not an official game. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 20:22, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Faycal.09: From what I can see, there are only 5 players out of 23 in the Algeria squad that play in the Algerian League. How is that their A' team "reinforced" with foreign players? That's like calling a team with only 5 U23 players an under-23 team "reinforced" with over-age players which would be ludicrous. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding something but this is in no way Algeria's A' team, only the coaching staff are from the A' team which can be mentioned in a footnote. Hashim-afc (talk) 01:10, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

@Hashim-afc: Thank you for your message, I will try to explain and sorry for my bad english. On July 2020, Algeria FA decided to send the A' (local team) to the 2021 Arab Cup in Qatar [1]. On May 2021, the Algerian FA in collaboration with the first team's coach Djamel Belmadi and the A' coach Madjid Bougherra, decided to add to the A' (local team) some players of the arab leagues that play or that they can maybe play in futur with the first team [2]. I agree with you, there are many players of arab leagues but they represent the A' team. If you want we can said the B team however it's the A' team of Madjid Bougherra and sure it's not the first team of Djamel Belmadi. Regards. --Fayçal.09 (talk) 20:18, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Faycal.09: The moment the Algerian FA decided to add foreign players in May 2021, it was no longer the A' team anymore. The A' team by definition is the team for local league players. If Algeria had announced they are sending the under-23 team with the under-23 team's coaching staff, would we still call it the under-23 team if they later added 15 players over the age of 23? This wouldn't make any sense. The correct solution is to call them Algeria and make a note that the coaching staff are from the A' team. Hashim-afc (talk) 21:44, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Hashim-afc: look at the page of the Algerian FA official fb page here, it's mentioned Algeria A' local team with the players below from local and arab leagues. This is the official name of the team. --Fayçal.09 (talk) 21:57, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Faycal.09: I assume they use the name Algeria A' is since it's not a first team squad and because the coaching staff are from the A' team. But, factually it is not the same Algeria A' national football team for which we have an article on Wikipedia since it has foreign-based players. Algerian FA can name the team however they like, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the correct name to use on Wikipedia. I also don't think we can call it Algeria B or Algeria Reserve since this opens up a new argument about other teams that are not sending full strength teams like Saudi Arabia and Egypt. So I think it's correct to refer to them as Algeria and Morocco with a note that the coaching staff are from the A' team, this should make it clear that it's not a first team squad anyway. We can even mention in the note that originally the A' team was to participate but foreign-based players were later added. Also, are FIFA considering the matches as full internationals which contribute to the FIFA rankings? This could be another important consideration. Hashim-afc (talk) 22:44, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Reliable database websites consider Algeria and Morocco to be participating in the Arab Cup, not their A' teams. See Soccerway and Global Sports Archive, for example. We should reflect what reliable sources say. What the Algerian and Moroccan FAs label themselves, in my opinion, is not relevant. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 00:50, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the opinions above about the dropping of the A's. This is a championship for the senior teams regardless of who leads the teams. Spain played against Lithuania with their under-23 team, but the match remained registered as a full international match.--Sakiv (talk) 01:32, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

@Hashim-afc: Saudi Arabia as an asian team don't have A' team, theses category concern only african teams. Saudi Arabia participate with the first team but the manager included some U-23 players. And to answer tou your questions, FIFA don't consider the matches of this edition as full internationals [3][4]. --Fayçal.09 (talk) 08:46, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

No, FIFA didn't say they aren't official. The games are not going to affect the FIFA rankings for practical reasons (otherwise it would influence the African Cup of Nations pots). You haven't addressed my comment above about database websites. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:18, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: To answer to your question, I think that Algerian or Moroccan FA are credible same as FIFA, I sended before link of Algerian FA. That's the second link about the Moroccan FA wich is mentioned the squad of the Moroccan A' local team who will take part to the arab cup [5]. --Fayçal.09 (talk) 17:32, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

FIFA did not call them "Algeria A'" or "Morocco A'", though. The official website uses "Algeria" and "Morocco". A note indicating that the staff is the local team's one is more than enough imo. Hashim's point above is still too strong to be ignored: If Algeria had announced they are sending the under-23 team with the under-23 team's coaching staff, would we still call it the under-23 team if they later added 15 players over the age of 23? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 18:22, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Sorry the teams are clearly mentionned in the the two FA sites that are the A' local teams with their staff. I gives you the official links about that. --Fayçal.09 (talk) 19:15, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

You have been saying the same thing over and over. Not only have I and other users here addressed your comments, but we have also pointed out several other problems with calling the teams "A'". Nehme₁₄₉₉ 19:34, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

By the way, the 2021 FIFA Arab Cup affected the FIFA rankings of this month: all countries (including Algeria and Morocco) gained or lost points. So, in FIFA's eyes, the teams participating were all senior, not A'. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:22, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

FIFA has counted the matches yes, but Algeria and Morocco have not played with their A teams. The Algerian and Moroccan federations have clearly mentioned this. --Fayçal.09 (talk) 20:48, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

If Lebanon said that they sent their U15 team, does it make it the U15 team? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:40, 24 December 2021 (UTC)