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Talk:2008 Mongolian parliamentary election

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Infobox

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I think the pictures in the infobox are a bit misleading. Only a fraction of the electorate had the chance to vote for either Elbegdorj or Bayar. They voted for the candidates in their respective regions. I also think this two-party dichotomy does not really cut it. With parties like IZN it is hard to tell whether they are in opposition or in the government, with people like Gundalai it is hard to tell whether they are in the DP or not, etc. Maybe we have one winning party and the rest, but presenting this as a struggle between two parties seems just wrong. Yaan (talk) 16:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS. The pre-2008 seat numbers for the DP are just wrong. They include the IZN as well as Ekh oron, which are different parties (and one of them is even currently part of the government). Yaan (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

close race

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This "close race" stuff is probably a leftover from (once more) failed predictions, or it only refers to Ulaanbaatar. 41:(max.)35 is not close. And apparently the Democrats do not feel close anymore, either. Yaan (talk) 13:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

neutrality

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Wikipedia is neutral site. It is not advertisement of any political party. So I removed some paragraph. --202.131.1.11 (talk) 09:54, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How is giving the reaction of the prime minister and the president "advertising"? It is certainly relevant to the article, isn't it? Yaan (talk) 10:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Results

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I suppose we can or will be able to find them at gec.gov.mn, but I can't read Mongolian and the English version of the site is not available... Help? —Nightstallion 10:31, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You can find a list here. I counted 45 seats for the MPRP, 27 for the democrats, one independent candidate, one for the Civic Will Party, one for the Civic Coalition(?) (Irgenii esvel, not the same as Civic Will Party). No idea whether it is a "reliable source", though. Yaan (talk) 14:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mh. Seems to contradict other sources (with 47-26)... —Nightstallion 12:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This source seems to be reliable enogh, and they cite the chairman of the general election comission, D. (sic!) Battulga: 44 for MPRP, 27 for Democrats, one each for IZN, IE, and independent, two seats to be determined. But the table below is not consistent with Battulga's small statement above - 45 for MPRP, 28 for DP. Another possibility would be to search Mongolian news sites for info. Yaan (talk) 13:16, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
sighs Not really much better, is it? IPU has no info yet, and the parliament's website is not updated in English (and I can't understand Mongolian, so I don't even know whether they have the results or not)... —Nightstallion 21:40, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mh. Final results by Thursday, 10 July. —Nightstallion 23:22, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Who is Sumati? How can he/she know the election was held fair?

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I think his/her statement is not relevant at all here. He/she is not able to know whether the election was rigged or not, because the counting system is a Stone Age system where one reads out the votes to others for recording. Nobody can check whether the reader is reliable/neutral. The election was rigged obviously considering many facts. For example, 1. Darkhan-Uul Aimag Governor Khayankhyarvaa was elected No 1 in Khongor Soum (a subunit of Darkhan-Uul Aimag) which was affected by (sodium) cyanide poisoning by a mining company licensed by the Governor. The people of this Soum protested the election results. 2. Dornod Aimag voting was found rigged (one true and another false ballot-boxes were found by the opposition party members), however the MPRP led propaganda/brainwashing campaign (may be, Sumati is informing the international media within this propaganda/brainwashing campaign) denies or ignores this clear fact.

So, I removed Sumati's statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GenuineMongol (talk • contribs) 03:59, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sumati is the boss of Sant Maral, a (the biggest one?) Mongolian polling firm (foundation?). Some (most?) of those pre-election polls that the democrats cite as part of their evidence for (alleged) fraud are probably his work. So his remarks seem quite relevant here. But if you feel like it, maybe you can elaborate more on the AH POV (with sources). Yaan (talk) 10:26, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sant Maral is the biggest one? Sumati may maintain good contacts with foreigners, so according to international reporters, he/she seems to have the biggest polling firm in Mongolia. There are many polling firms in Mongolia. His/her is just one of them. The pre-election polls that the democrats cite as part of their evidence for fraud are not only his/her work, but the works of other polling firms (one of them is run by Bat-Erdeniin Batbayar, a popular independent analyst) too. --GenuineMongol (talk) 15:39, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I admit that Sant Maral is the only one I know. Btw. what exactly is Baabar's take on the issue? Yaan (talk) 16:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think reading the ballot out loud is just the same as it is done in Germany. And they don't bother whether the reader is neutral and reliable or not (as long as he is not previously convicted, I guess). But he has to show the ballot paper around after reading it. (Not so sure about this, see for example communal election regulations Rheinland-Pfalz, § 55, section2) And the vote counting is open to the public. I don't think Mongolia is so different, is it? Yaan (talk) 11:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is different in Mongolia. Vote counting is not open to the public and even the observers assigned to the voting stations were not allowed to be closer enough to the vote reader to see the votes clearly. The vote reader did not show it to others after reading it aloud. Such problems were reported by the observers during and after the elections. With regards to sources, you may see here an example of the problem.--GenuineMongol (talk) 15:05, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Care to give a translation of some key statements? The link I gave above said nothing about showing the ballot around, hence I crossed it out. But does Mongolia seriously have no public vote counting? Even East German vote counting was open to the public (Wahlordnung 1974, § 40 (1))! Yaan (talk) 15:56, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Baabar published his open letter to President Enkhbayar, Prime Minister Bayar, DP Chairman Elbegdorj and Chairman of the General Election Committee Battulga in an effort to persuade them to reach a consensus over how the election disputes shall be resolved to let the political process in Mongolia proceeds smoothly further. He said he had very good personal relations with both leaders of the main two parties (MPRP and DP), i.e. Bayar and Elbegdorj. His opinions/conclusions: The election was rigged. But it will take at least two years to prepare for revoting, so it is not feasible. Meanwhile, the Mongolian economic situation will get worse and the public discontentment with the rulers will reach the level to lead to the even larger riots and chaos. He proposed the parties to settle the issue peacefully through reconciliation. First, Mongolia needs new election system and legislation that regulates the election processes finely. So, the new parliament should be established soon to adopt such system and legislation. Second, to let a new parliament be formed, the parties should agree to conduct recount on 5-6 constituencies and form the parliament with the rest of the elected members. If the recount reveals very serious problems, then the votes of the next several constituencies will be recounted. If the elected members are found to have rigged the elections, they will resign and the actual winners will take place of them. This way, recount may be conducted on all the constituencies. The majority party may become be the minority party after recount. So, the parties must agree on this condition of power shift based on recount. Third, the parties need to issue a joint declaration against violence. At the end note, he said he hoped that the President would not take advantage of this situation to gain more power. Sorry if any point is missing from the original letter.--GenuineMongol (talk) 06:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot. Actually I am also curious about what the recounts will yield. Is there already a decision about whether Bayangol will be recounted or not? Yaan (talk) 11:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Results

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Shall we give the results at songuuli.mn, as it is an official site? Candidates from a lot of parties are disputing the results, and I personally believe the vote was rigged, the comments by GenuineMongol are all true, sources are at News.mn --Chinneebmy talk 14:31, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is songuuli.mn really official? I clicked on "bidnii tuhai" and could not find any statement on how they are related to the state, or to parties, or if they are doing all this on their own. But my Mongolian is really bad, maybe I just could not understand. As far as I understand, WP should give all relevant POVs, this includes important politicians of all sides, relevant state agencies like the General Election Comission, relevant observers like (probably) international observers and opinion polling institutions. Yaan (talk) 10:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I also think there is no really official final result yet. Just preliminaries. Yaan (talk) 10:50, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Or is this official? Yaan (talk) 11:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is official and was submitted to the President. Recounting will take place in Dornod and Khentii Aimags and Bayangol District, so their results are not final. Read about it here --GenuineMongol (talk) 15:11, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's already in the article, except the recount stuff, which I will add now. Yaan (talk) 16:12, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Btw. the link you gave seems to be the wrong one.
In case anyone wonders, in English, news.mn gives one seat to Irgenii Esvel and not to Z.Altai, but Altai ran in the Bayanzurh/Nalaih, and the possible recount is in Bayangol, where IE candidate D. Enhbat was elected (for exact numbers see link in my 11:02 post), so I guess the Mongolian version is the correct one here. Yaan (talk) 16:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The official list submitted to the President is [here]. It is clearer.--GenuineMongol (talk) 06:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

article organization

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I think the article could be organized into some subsections, like "Run-up and voting", "Official results", "Allegations of fraud", "Riots and state of emergency". Any opinions? Yaan (talk) 11:04, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

infobox:popular vote

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I removed the entries for the popular vote (and %) from the infobox. There does not seem to be any official statement on this (right?), and they seem not very relevant. Of course one could easily determine some kind of popular vote from the numbers given here (for each constituency, sum up votes for all candidates of one party, then divide by number of seats for said constituency. Do this for all constituencies and then add up. For %, divide by number of voters), but I guess doing so might border OR.

Actually, I am still not entirely convinced of that 2-party stuff that the infobox displays. Even if the smaller parties and independents now have only 3 seats, this was far from clear before the election, and it's not only the democrats who protest the election results. If I am not mistaken, the protests (though possibly not the subsequent riots) before the MPRP headquarters on July 1st were largely the work of the Republican Party and the Civic Alliance? Yaan (talk) 11:37, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Civil Will

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According to the IPU results, it's the "Civic Will Republican Party" -- did the CWP and the RP merge? —Nightstallion 19:42, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, the CWRP has split into the two parties, i.e. Civic Will Party (led by Sanjaasurengiin Oyun, sister of Sanjaasurengiin Zorig) and Republican Party (led by Bazarsadyn Jargalsaikhan).--GenuineMongol (talk) 01:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Really? I always thought the Civic Will-Republican Party just changed its name to Civic Will, and the current Repub. Party by Jargalsaikhan is a completely different entity. Besides, no sources here[1]. --Chinneebmy talk 08:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you read German, there is something here (3rd section). Apparently they united in February 2003 and split (because of Republican Party founder Jargalsaihan, according to article) in December of the same year. I guess IPU just missed the "split" part. I really think the party's name in Mongolian now is just Irgenii Zorig Nam (Civil Will Party), not Irgenii Zorig Bügd Nairamdah Nam (Civil Will-Republican Party). Yaan (talk) 09:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. These parties merge and split in the same year. --GenuineMongol (talk) 11:46, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Great, thanks for clearing that up -- just wanted to make sure the sources did not conflict. —Nightstallion 08:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


article organization

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I think the article could be organized into some subsections, like "Run-up and voting", "Official results", "Allegations of fraud", "Riots and state of emergency". Any opinions? Yaan (talk) 11:04, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have gone ahead and created an alternative version at User:Yaan/Sandbox. Any objections towards replacing this article with that alternative version? Yaan (talk) 14:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your version looks better! --GenuineMongol (talk) 01:58, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Enkhbat

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What happened to Enkhbat from the Civic Coalition? --Chinneebmy talk 13:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Bayangol district results have not been declared yet, so Temuujin, Munkh-Orgil, Enkhbat and Erdenee have not been sworn in. --GenuineMongol (talk) 15:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

AFP and Xinhua fail basic maths?

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just in case anyone is confused about the number of undecided seats, AFP does not explain how they arrive at 76-(42+25+1+1)=6. I guess they got something wrong with their calculator? Yaan (talk) 17:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The number is wrong, because Bayangol has 4 seats and Dornod has 3 seats. So, the undecided seats still number 4+3=7 --GenuineMongol (talk) 17:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And it's already wrong when you calculate 76-69. Yaan (talk) 11:50, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The reason is simple -- the DP leader was not sworn in together with all the other members, but a few days later, and I suspect they simply had the old data. (The IPU also considered this to be the count.) —Nightstallion 10:05, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then they should have had eight open seats, not six. But "the fate of" Elbegdorj's seat had not been undecided anyway, since he is not from Dornod or Bayangol. Yaan (talk) 13:44, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good point on the actual number... Yeah, but IPU and other news outlets reported the numbers of the MPs sworn in so far. —Nightstallion 23:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
72 members have been sworn in so far. Only Bayangol seats (4) remained undecided. --GenuineMongol (talk) 02:38, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I know, I made the updates. ;) —Nightstallion 15:48, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bayangol

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What's taking them so long? —Nightstallion 08:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Politics, man, politics. (sigh) --GenuineMongol (talk) 05:26, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What's so difficult about certifying the results? —Nightstallion 22:10, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
www.mongolei.de says this has actually been decided upon on October 9th, with the result that one DP candidate was replaced by a MPRP man. I.e. one seat for DP, two for MPRP, one for Irgenii Esvel. Yaan (talk) 18:52, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perfect, I put it in the article. —Nightstallion 15:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Irgenii Esvel

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If I understand correctly, Irgenii Esvel has announced its merger with the DP. Does that make their MP part of the governing coalition? Yaan (talk) 16:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, Irgenii Evsel did not merge with the DP, but a few leaders of the Civil Movement Party joined the DP. The Civil Movement Party does not have any MP. So, the number of Democratic Party MPs will not change.--GenuineMongol (talk) 18:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the correction (finally I get the logic behind that word, I think), but I assumed one of the MPs from Bayangol is for Irgenii Evsel? Yaan (talk) 18:09, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, he is from the Irgenii Evsel, but he is not a member of the Civil Movement Party. There was a discussion among the leaders of the Civil Movement Party on whether they should merge with the DP, but due to controversy among the leaders of the party, only a few of them, most notably Batzandan and Magnai, decided to join the DP. --GenuineMongol (talk) 18:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why Batzandan and Magnai who organized the protest not mentioned?

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The organizers of the protest Batzandan and Magnai not mentioned? Also how about "Buyan" Jargalsaikhan?

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