Talk:1995 Pale air strikes
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[edit]@Wingsanity: Can anybody provide a source supporting the claim of a Serbian victory? I am old enough to remember this action and the news services and the press only showed a couple of ammo dumps at Pale blowing up in a spectacular fashion. The issue of the UNPROFOR hostages is a direct consequence in the aftermath, yes, but this doesn't mean that the action by itself was a Serbian success, quite the contrary. Darius (talk) 14:01, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hello, firstly I have to tell you that you are making a lot of mistakes and that your comment (question) is out of place. First of all, those people are not "Serbian" but "Serb" in English, you can say that it is a small difference, but in this case it is really big because "Serbian" are people from Serbia and these are Serbs from Bosnia. Second, this is a victory for the VRS because the F16s plane was shot down(pilot was saved), and this is not stated in the article but written in the sources (it is a completely similar situation to Gorazde Airstrikes). And thirdly, this is not so much a VRS victory as a NATO failure, because they did not fulfill their goals, and for literate people, it is stated below in the "Sources" section as that. That's why I don't agree with the user who deleted the result below because its not true if you just leave this empty, it's either victory or defeat. I would add the sources right above the result but I don't know how to do it unfortunately I'm new here.
- Cheers Wynnsanity (talk) 14:31, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- First of all, thank you for making clear the difference between "Serb" and "Serbian"; media outlets back in the 1990s used both terms indiscriminately. Regarding the issue of a Bosnian Serb victory, don´t take it personally. I will restore the entry in the infobox, but only to give other editors the oportunity to discuss the matter. I agree that the outcome at Gorazde looked certainly more favourable to the Bosnian Serbs than the bombing of Pale, where NATO forces managed to destroy two ammo depots unopposed. If you search for any non-Serb or Serbian source (take a look at WP:PARTISAN) in the internet and none will report the shooting down of an F-16. None of the English language cited sources mention this. I am quite confident that from 1991 to 1999, Serb and Serbian forces (Montenegro also could have played its part) only shot down five fixed-wing manned NATO aircraft: 1 UK Sea Harrier (15 April 1994 by Igla missile), 2 US F-16 (2 June 1995 by a SA-6 and 2 May 1999 by a SA-3), 1 Fr Mirage 2000 (30 August 1995 by Igla missile), and 1 F-117 (27 March 1999 by a SA-6). A couple of choppers and even an Italian G.222 transport plane were also lost to Serb/Yugoslav fire, but none of them were operating under NATO command (only some doubts about an Apache fallen in Albania in 1999). If sources are reliable, usually you don't need to add citations to infobox entries, but the case for the F-16 shot down at Pale is almost insurmountable, I guess. Darius (talk) 15:44, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Good Day Darius, thank you for understanding that strange denominations that many others do not know. I'm not taking anything personally because I'm not from the Balkans, but my father is, so I understand better what's happening. It's understandable that you don't trust Serb sources because they can't always be objective, but you should also know that on many other pages(about war and politics) there are only, for example, Croatian or Albanian sources, which when you translate them into English are at least funny and that doesn't bother anyone. Regarding this topic, I only looked at English sources, but even they are not 100% accurate, because honestly English newspapers(who are to be honest pro-NATO) will never write like this "victory of the Republic of Serpska" but "those planes were shot down" or "the goals were not achieved". In the source that I read called: "Operation Deny Flight". AFSOUTH Fact Sheets reads as follows: "On 8 June 95, the pilot of the NATO F-16C aircraft, who was shot down over western Bosnia on 2 June 1995, was successfully rescued by search and rescue forces. " So the plane bombed one of its targets but was shot down a few days later, the pilot was saved and the operation was stopped because of the hostages that were taken (I don't justify that action at all). I can also write about your statement that only 5 aircrafts were shot down from 91-99 but let's stay on this topic for now.
- Best Wynnsanity (talk) 17:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
- First of all, thank you for making clear the difference between "Serb" and "Serbian"; media outlets back in the 1990s used both terms indiscriminately. Regarding the issue of a Bosnian Serb victory, don´t take it personally. I will restore the entry in the infobox, but only to give other editors the oportunity to discuss the matter. I agree that the outcome at Gorazde looked certainly more favourable to the Bosnian Serbs than the bombing of Pale, where NATO forces managed to destroy two ammo depots unopposed. If you search for any non-Serb or Serbian source (take a look at WP:PARTISAN) in the internet and none will report the shooting down of an F-16. None of the English language cited sources mention this. I am quite confident that from 1991 to 1999, Serb and Serbian forces (Montenegro also could have played its part) only shot down five fixed-wing manned NATO aircraft: 1 UK Sea Harrier (15 April 1994 by Igla missile), 2 US F-16 (2 June 1995 by a SA-6 and 2 May 1999 by a SA-3), 1 Fr Mirage 2000 (30 August 1995 by Igla missile), and 1 F-117 (27 March 1999 by a SA-6). A couple of choppers and even an Italian G.222 transport plane were also lost to Serb/Yugoslav fire, but none of them were operating under NATO command (only some doubts about an Apache fallen in Albania in 1999). If sources are reliable, usually you don't need to add citations to infobox entries, but the case for the F-16 shot down at Pale is almost insurmountable, I guess. Darius (talk) 15:44, 24 September 2024 (UTC)