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Talk:1972 Wings Tour Bus

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by MeegsC (talk) 13:55, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Created by Mike Peel (talk). Self-nominated at 22:38, 22 March 2021 (UTC).[reply]

GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:1972 Wings Tour Bus/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wasted Time R (talk · contribs) 16:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]


I will be reviewing this article. Wasted Time R (talk) 16:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    Generally good, but see a few items below
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
    Needs a broader range of sources, see below
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    Article raises more questions than it answers in a few places, see items below
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    See one comment below
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    Good work on creating the article in the first place, but needs some work to be GA-level comprehensive

Regarding 1a and 1b:

his first tour after the break-up of the Beatles – this needs to be stated differently, as the UK university tour was before this. But this was the first proper tour with scheduled, announced performances (see the Carlin bio cite below for support of this).

Changed to "first major tour".

Its value was estimated as £25,000-£30,000. – that should be an en-dash not a hyphen.

Changed to en-dash.

There should be links to the counties of Essex and Norfolk, as readers around the world may not know what those names refer to.

Linked.

In 2017, Paul McCartney tweeted - no need for 'Paul' or repeat link to McCartney article here

Changed to 'In 2017, McCartney'.

The redlinks to bus companies and the like are okay, but in my view the redlinks to Tom Salter and Tom Jennings should be removed. WP:REDLINKBIO doesn't forbid them, but I've seen cases where an article about a different person with the same name gets created and all of a sudden an innocuous mention is linked to a criminal or something like that.

I've removed the link to the first Tom, but kept the link to Tom Jennings (UK) since that is already disambiguated (should minimise the risk of it going to a different person), and he seems potentially notable.

Is there a website for the 1972 Wings Tour Bus Supporters Club? If so, an "External links" section could be created with a link to that site in it.

There is at http://www.1972wingstourbus.com/, but it is already a reference (I added another reference to make it clearer), and it was in the infobox until another editor removed it (the current infobox template doesn't seem to support URLs). I really don't like external links sections, so would prefer not to add one.

Regarding categories, I'm not sure Category:Tenerife is really warranted. However Category:Vehicles introduced in 1953 could be added as could Category:Bus transport in England.

Categories added. I've moved it to Category:Transport in Tenerife - I think at least one Tenerife-related category is appropriate given that it spent a long time here!

Regarding 2a and 2b:

The article is currently referenced solely to news stories and websites about the bus. But the article should also look for information in books about McCartney / Wings / post-breakup Beatles, of which there are many. For example, pages 297–298 of the Howard Sounes book Fab: An Intimate Life of Paul McCartney, he says that while the bus was fun for the children, it was a slow and inefficient way to get around the European continent, and gives a quote from drummer Denny Seiwell to this effect. He also says that almost all the adults on the bus were smoking cannabis, which eventually led to their problems with the Swedish authorities. And the Peter Ames Carlin book Paul McCartney: A Life page 221 has a description of the bus having a functioning kitchen in the rear of the lower level and emphasizes the Magical Mystery Tour feel that the bus brought to the whole endeavor. It also has a good quote from McCartney that you could use that begins with "Quite a mad thing to do ...". And that's just two books I was able to look at online, there are a bunch of others, you can look at the references in the Wings and McCartney articles for more pointers.

References and info added.

The article can also used news stories that were written at the time. This one from the Guardian, for example, talks about the 'dazzling' colors of the livery, the fact that the bus had a stereo system as well as a playpen, and emphasizes that the point of the bus was that McCartney really wanted to enjoy the process of touring. Then there is this column that says that Paul and Linda had a big double bed in the bus that they wanted to move into each hotel they stayed in (maybe not a reliable source in itself but could be something to search for in other sources).

References and info added.

before being repainted with the Wings livery for the third time (and the last time it was repainted) for the Beatles Amsterdam Convention. – this needs a cite.

Missing ref tag was added (the reference was already included, I just missed the tag on this sentence).

fn 6 – the title should be changed out of all uppercase.

Changed.

fn 14 – there should be an access date.

Added.

Regarding 3a:

In 1966 the upper deck roof was removed, ... – the article needs to make clear in what role the bus was used by Eastern Counties and Halls Coaches once this happened. It doesn't seem too practical for regular bus routes, as riders on the top would be exposed to cold winds in winter and the rain in the frequently changing English weather any time of year. Maybe it used for regular routes with less patronage, such that the lower enclosed deck would usually have enough capacity and if it was a nice day, riders could move up top? Or was it used for sightseeing, the way you commonly see open double decker hop-on, hop-off buses in cities today? The image in the article of the WNO 479 bus shows it bearing the destination sign 'Wedding Special', so was it used for special events like that?

I don't know, and I haven't spotted a reference that says this. I think it was basically used as a bus-for-hire rather than always as a local service. Also, maybe people back then were more optimistic about the weather? ;-)

McCartney obtained the bus – bought? leased? given as a promotional item?

Clarified: bought according to the BBC reference. Although other references weren't so clear, which is why I originally wrote it with a little ambiguity - it seems to have been owned by Halls Coaches both before and after the tour, which implies it was leased rather than bought. But the reference says bought.

The seats on the top deck were removed, with mattresses and bean bags for the band and their families to sleep on – Sleeping out in the open sounds very adventurous ... until bugs show up or it rains in the middle of the night. Did they have tents or netting or anything like that? And from what I've read of the tour in the above books, they stayed in high-end hotels in towns where they were playing. So were the mattresses just for naps?

Clarified using the references you linked to above. The BBC article made it sound like they slept on the bus during the tour, but it doesn't seem like that was the case.

and was also used as a playpen for their children while on the move. - this sounds a little, maybe, dangerous? Even at 35 mph, taking a quick turn might be problematic.

But that's what the reference says... I guess it was the days before health-and-safety.

One overall point that could be made is that a modern tour bus for a big-name act (including McCartney's later tours) could hardly fit on this one normal-sized bus. They require multiple large coaches and trucks to get around, and in some cases there are duplicate sets of staging and gear that leapfrog each other on the tour itinerary. The fact that Wings could use this bus in 1972 shows what a modest operation it still was.

I don't know how to add this without references...

Halls Coaches was bought by Tricentrol around August 1973, and the bus was repainted mustard gold and moved to Dunstable. – same question as for pre-tour, was the bus used for regular routes, sightseeing, special events, ...?

Same answer as above.

Regarding 6b:

It's a shame there is no licensable image of the bus in Wings livery.

If it was still here in Tenerife, I'd have gone and photographed it... but it needs someone in the UK to go find it now!
Have you tried emailing the current owner? There's an email address at the bottom of http://www.1972wingstourbus.com/ --Usernameunique (talk) 15:19, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Usernameunique: I'd sent them a message on Facebook, but hadn't noticed the email address. Have now emailed them! Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 15:30, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Usernameunique and Wasted Time R: I got an email reply from Tom Jennings - there's now a photo of the bus in the article! I've asked if he would be willing to upload more as well. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 18:28, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wow! What a nice photo. --Usernameunique (talk) 18:41, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's really excellent that there is a photo of it there now, good work on getting it. As for the additional research I am doing as mentioned below, I started on it then got diverted onto other things. I am resuming now and hope to be back with it reasonably soon. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:38, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, I am putting the nomination on hold. Wasted Time R (talk) 15:21, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Wasted Time R: Many thanks for the review! I'll work through the points you've raised, and will ping you again when I'm done (or if I have any queries). Bear in mind I'm not a music fan, I'm coming at this from the history perspective (particularly things related to Tenerife at the moment). Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 16:25, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Wasted Time R: Responses to your points are inline above, and the article has been improved by the tweaks and additional references. Thanks in particular for finding the additional references! As I said above, I'm not really a music fan, so I don't really have the interest to go looking through lots of books about Paul McCartney (unless they were specifically about the bus!), so I'm limited to what I can find by Google, but I'm happy to include info from other references if you can point them out to me. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 18:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(There is also more on Youtube, but I can't really use that as a reference... Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 18:11, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see what more I can find. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:15, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I had hoped to get to a library and see what might be in some books, but didn't get a chance. But here is what I have come up with:

The article should have a link to the open top bus article. Regarding how this and other such coaches were used by Eastern National, they may have been employed on some special occasions, but it looks to me like their primary purpose was to run regular service routes in the summer months in seaside areas. See the detailed account at http://www.sct61.org.uk/seafront-3.htm, which has a couple of mentions of Eastern National 2385 aka WNO 481 and links to photos of it, including several when it was in Tenerife.

Accounts of the Wings tour bus sometimes refer to it as a former London Transport bus. Is this a mistake, or a missing piece of the bus's history? See for instance "News in Brief." The Times, July 11, 1972, 6. The Times Digital Archive (accessed July 19, 2021). https://link-gale-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/apps/doc/CS102463211/TTDA?u=wikipedia&sid=bookmark-TTDA&xid=cfe4c5ad.

Similarly, "On This Day." Times, July 11, 2001, 19. The Times Digital Archive (accessed July 20, 2021). https://link-gale-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/apps/doc/IF0501057280/TTDA?u=wikipedia&sid=bookmark-TTDA&xid=95c4d1b1. This is a reprint of a story from 1972, "McCartney Tests His Wings". It also has a good quote from McCartney as to the rationale for the open top allowing them to enjoy the sun on the traveling around: "We never had time to do that in the Beatle days."

According to this next story, the bus's slow speed meant that sometimes promoters had to drive out and meet the bus en route if it looked like the bus might arrive too late to make the performance. McCartney said that such uncertainties added to the sense of adventure, and says in retrospect, "We were a bunch of nutters on the road." See Doyle, Tom and Paul McCartney. "'we were Gypsies, a Bunch of Nutters on the Road. God, what were we on?': After the Wreckage of the Beatles, Paul McCartney Formed Wings... " Mail on Sunday, May 12, 2013. https://www-proquest-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/newspapers/we-were-gypsies-bunch-nutters-on-road-god-what/docview/1350016171/se-2?accountid=196403.

Here's a newspaper RS source for the bus going up for auction in 1993: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/81860960/the-miami-herald/

Here's a newspaper article from the 2019 auction that gives some description of the artwork that isn't in the article currently: snow-covered mountains and the name of the tour against the blue sky. "Macca's Old Tour Bus Ready to Pick Up for a Song at £25k." Daily Express, Oct 07, 2019. https://www-proquest-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/newspapers/maccas-old-tour-bus-ready-pick-up-song-at-£25k/docview/2301332461/se-2?accountid=196403.

Finally, this book has a lot of good material: Tom Doyle, Man on the Run: Paul McCartney in the 1970s (New York: Ballantine Books, 2013), pp. 66–67 (you may be able to see these pages in Amazon Look Inside). McCartney wanted touring to be a pleasant experience, didn't want to be stuck inside a vehicle in heat of July or August, wanted to be out in the sun on the upper deck. The bus recalls the Beatles' Magical Mystery Tour (that's the first thing I thought of) and also the 1963 Cliff Richard movie Summer Holiday (which I never knew about until now). In Doyle's view, the psychedelic design already looked five years out of date at the time. The Wings Over Europe sign went where the bus's advertising strip had once been. The rotating sign on the front of the bus had the tour's next destination, while the back of the bus had the band members' names stenciled on it. The lower level was carpeted, with a galley kitchen in rear, and four original seats remained in the bus behind the driver's position. The upper level was "basically a hippie crash space" with a playpen, some worn sofa cushions, and some large beanbags.

Anyway, see what you think of all this. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Wasted Time R: Wow, thanks, that's a lot of references! I think you're going way beyond the duties of a GA Reviewer, in a good way. :-) I'll have a look through soon and will see what I can add into the article. It looks like the Tom Doyle book is available on Kindle, so I can buy a copy of that if I can't access it on Google Books. I don't have Wikipedia Library access, though, so the ones with 'wikipedialibrary' in the URL don't work for me - any chance you would be willing to email me a copy instead please? (I'll also see if I can find open URLs for these.) Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 07:28, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have tried sending the Gale and ProQuest articles via their 'send' feature to your personal website's email address, hopefully you will get something readable. Or maybe you have university access to some of these same databases? But if not, and you're going to be doing article creation work, you might consider getting Wikipedia Library access. They've assembled a strong set of resources and many editors use those resources heavily. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Wasted Time R: I got some emails, they looked like they made sense, I'll see what I can do soon (running out of energy/time today). I'm not a big fan of the Wikipedia Library, since I prefer to use sources that can be accessed without special permissions (better for the reader, and for other editors without access). Similarly with my University access, which I tend to prefer not using for things like this. Plus the topics I'm interested in aren't too well covered there anyway, since they are normally in other languages. ;-) Will see how things go though. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 19:58, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Wasted Time R:
  • Link to open top bus has been added
  • I think the reference to the 'London Transport' bus are mistaken - the work to modify the bus was done in a London Transport depot, but I don't think they owned the bus based on the other references.
  • The Daily Mail reference is good, and it's online at [1] - but I'm not sure I'm allowed to use it per WP:DAILYMAIL - when I've used DM in the past it's been removed (often leaving sentences unreferenced).
  • The other refs have now been integrated into the article. I'll continue reading through Doyle's book to see if there's extra information elsewhere in that book.
How do you want to proceed from here? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 14:44, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I say, use the Daily Mail piece – it's written by the author of the book and it doesn't exhibit any of the sins that got the Daily Mail banned – and protest if someone tries to take the cite out. Real scholars never engage in this kind of blanket banning of a publication, they examine and weigh every potential source on a case by case basis. As for the rest of it, let me know when you are done and I will wrap up the review. Wasted Time R (talk) 18:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Wasted Time R: OK, the DM reference is now in the article, although given past interactions about DM references I suspect it will be removed by a drive-by editor soon who will refuse to allow it to be added back again. Anyhow, I also found a bit in the book about them having to be fetched from the bus when it was running late, so that's double-referenced. I'm all done now, over to you! Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 19:02, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In the interest of moving things along, I've made some changes directly to the article. I added the regular service role the open top bus had for Eastern National, as you didn't say anything against that in your comments above. I've added the Denny Seiwell view of the bus, since Beatles-oriented readers will be interested in hearing what a non-McCartney member of Wings thought about it, and I've added in-text attribution for the Sounes quote on the same, since otherwise the reader won't know where that's coming from. I've moved the McCartney quote into a side box, because I think it's effective there without completely breaking the visual flow. And I've done a few general copyedits, mostly in the footnotes. Let me know if you're okay with all of these changes. Wasted Time R (talk) 23:10, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Wasted Time R: Those changes look good, thanks for making them! I did a bit of minor copyediting. I see the Daily Mail reference got removed already. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 05:14, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I have passed the article for GA. Good work on it. I hope to be able to see the restored bus one day ... Wasted Time R (talk) 11:17, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ebay sale 2023

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Someone removed the text about this sale as the original web page has been removed by eBay. This is standard practice by eBay with old sales and the fact that the page no longer exists doesn't mean it didn't exist at the time that it was cited as a source - and there was no alternative. I have added additional citations from sources giving the same information, and were posted at the time, but they are forum posts that also cite the eBay page as their source, again because there was no other source. Do we remove all information that has been cited when a web page or even a book source no longer exists, even though it existed at the time the source was cited? Surely not. Andrewjmoran (talk) 15:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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