Talk:1971 Scottish soldiers' killings

Title

I see this is a GA nominee. It's a very informative, concise, and well-written article, backed by reliable sources. I'm a little ambivalent, however, regarding its title. It sounds a little awkward.User:Jeanne boleyn. (The signature device is malfunctioning)

I choose the title based on two factors 1). Similar articles such as Corporals killings and 2). The most common reference to the events is to the 'Three Scottish soldiers'. Any suggestions on how we can improve this? Kernel Saunters (talk) 16:36, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't know. The title sounds like the name of a ballad, rather than a triple murder in Northern Ireland. Could we not say 1971 Squire's Hill killings or is that too vague?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:58, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

How about just the Scottish soldiers killings or Scottish soldiers killings (1971)? THis way people know it was a late 20th century event.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:10, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd prefer something like White Brae ambush/White Brae killings. However, if it's more often called the "Scottish soldiers killings" then my choice would be 1971 Scottish soldiers killings. ~Asarlaí 17:15, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I was about to suggest the latter myself. I think that sounds fine. Let's see what Kernel Saunters says. White Brae ambush is also good, but we probably need to mention Scottish soldiers somewhere in the title.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:20, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the suggestion of 1971 Scottish soldiers killings. I'll move this article to that name tomorrow unless anyone objects Kernel Saunters (talk) 21:35, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

No objections from me, as it's a good title.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:14, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Three Scottish soldiers killings/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: FAC Wikicopter _{what i do} s + c cup|former 01:56, 12 March 2011 (UTC) Well, here goes! FAC Wikicopter _{what i do} s + c cup|former 01:56, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments

• Shouldn't the page be called "Three Scottish soldiers' killings?" (grammar stickler, I know) and same in the lede. FAC Wikicopter _{what i do} s + c cup|former 01:57, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Done Kernel Saunters (talk) 11:46, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

• In the Events section, I think there needs to be more background added to give context. deteriorating security situation needs to be elaborated. For instance, it should state the initial reception British troops were given by the nationalist population, and how relations between the two quickly fell apart with the nationalists strongly resenting a British military presence in Northern Ireland.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:50, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I think a link to the 1969 riots is appropriate as you suggest, but the situation is more complex than that the nationalist community resented the army. The main factor in these deaths is the rise of the the PIRA which was pushing aside the OIRA and these killings are seen by commentators as an escalation of the conflict by the PIRA, so I'm not convinced that the nationalist viewpoint is the main factor. I want to keep the article on-topic and neutral. If the reader needs in-depth background we have the linked troubles article. Kernel Saunters (talk) 11:46, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree about not venturing off-topic, yet a sentence or two should be added to explain how the PIRA viewed the British military presence. After all, the killings took place 17 months after the Army was deployed to the North, with the first killing happening a month prior to this incident. The reader may wonder what events transpired between August 1969 and February 1971 when Gunner Curtis was killed.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:21, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Done Kernel Saunters (talk) 14:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

It looks good! You conveyed enough information without going off on a tangent. Readers will also be able to learn more about the Falls Curfew.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:12, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

• Copyedit. FAC Wikicopter _{what i do} s + c cup|former 02:45, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Copyedit - reworded and corrected throughout Kernel Saunters (talk) 12:51, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

• In section Memorial, you mention that the monuments might be vandalised if erected, but you don't mention if they were vandalised. FAC Wikicopter _{what i do} s + c cup|former 04:10, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

The mother was advised in 1972 it was too risky but the memorial was actually erected in 2010 - when things were less problematic for such a memorial. I've reworded to make the dates clearer Kernel Saunters (talk) 15:16, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

• One thing left: IRA is sometimes called IRA, PIRA and Provisional IRA. Stick to one. FAC Wikicopter _{what i do} s + c cup|former 21:30, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Based on the fact that there were two active organisations that used IRA (OIRA and PIRA) at the time. I've adjusted the article to use Provisional IRA in all cases. Kernel Saunters (talk) 17:51, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Passed.

ψ== Opening sentence == Wouldn't the opening sentence read better as The three Scottish soldiers killings was an incident that took place in Northern Ireland during the Troubles? --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreed - Done Kernel Saunters (talk) 15:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Image of soldiers

The article would be enhanced by an image of the three dead soldiers. I believe we could find one and provide a fair-use rationale.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:34, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure a photo exists of the three - I've seen a drawing which appears to have been used on the memorial Kernel Saunters (talk) 14:25, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I found one the other day. I'll have to do a Google again to find it, but it exists.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:26, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good, tbh I'm not up to speed on the whole fair-use rationale stuff so if you could help out it would be much appreciated Kernel Saunters (talk) 17:45, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll have a look for it. It's out there in cyberspace. Very low resolution, but that's better as far as Fair Use goes.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:48, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I uploaed it. The only problem is I don't know which face belongs to whom. Tomorrow I'll check out other sites to see if they identify each photo.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:23, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Great stuff - many thanks Kernel Saunters (talk) 19:28, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

You're most welcome. I hope I can identify each face, though.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:21, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

GAN

I see this is currently up as a Good Article nominee. While I can't vouch for the quality of the content, I can't help but feel that using the {{cite web}} template is important for referencing. It helps avoid problems such as link rot, which is rife throughout Wikipedia. Essentially this guarantees that the article's content can be verified further down the line, enhancing its reliability and value as a source of information. Seegoon (talk) 22:32, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

All references and external links have now been reformated with an appropriate citation template Kernel Saunters (talk) 14:24, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

memorial song

Claoimh Solais What justification do you have for including what is clearly a bigoted anti-English song that is also of such little notability? Wikipedia is not a collection of songs and quotes for things and I seriously doubt the relevance and notability of such a minor piece of work to merit its inclusion in the article. What about the Three Scottish Soldiers song? Or is it too anti-republican and not condemning of England enough for inclusion? Mabuska ^(talk) 09:58, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

If there are other poems that are out there memorialising this event, whether they are anti-republican or not, then they could be included too. This particular poem in question was authored by a Scottish poet in a mainstream Highland Scottish newspaper (Stornoway Gazette) at the time of the event and it clearly isn't hostile to the soldiers themselves, but instead the British Empire.

A different Scottish perspective exists to the imperial narrative and in this particular poem it is well referenced and mainstream, so it should be represented here. A section of Scottish opinion was opposed to men with Gaelic names dying while garrisoning Ireland for England, that is interesting from a sociological perspective and worthy of mention. Claíomh Solais (talk) 10:34, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I see no evidence for your claims. And from what you added and what your saying it is obviously a highly biased and out of context piece never mind the alleged sociological perspective you claim. Considering the soldiers volunteered for the British Army and were stationed in a part of their own country, the United Kingdom, at the behest of their own government, that is the UK government not the English government which doesn't even exist, the whole poem and your vindication for it is a fringe and highly biased view that is at odds with reality and is being given undue weight.

Stornoway Gazette a mainstream Highlands newspaper? Its article makes it clear it is only a local paper in the Outer Hebrides. And it published a poem by a non-notable activist who isn't even listed at the Mac a' Ghobhainn article. A real lack of notability there. Indeed considering Seamus' only notable act is a collaboration with Ellis on a book on the 1820 insurrection and your source for the addition is another work by Ellis, it makes you wonder the conflict of interest Ellis may have. Any other sources that make reference to this poem, or is it just Seamus' colleague/friend Ellis?

I see no evidence of its mainstream status or anything and see no viable reasoning for including it at present. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:59, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Apologies for the late reply. I think we have to take into account that Scottish nationalism accounts for a significant proportion of Scottish public opinion and this poem being a representative of the Scottish national position, is appropriate for representation here. Our own article on Scottish nationalism is quite small, despite 45% of their population voting for independence not long ago, so whether Mac a' Ghobhainn has a Wikipedia article yet isn't really relevant IMO. If you can find references to the song actually celebrating these three Scotsmen dying so that English politicians in Westminster can administer part of Ireland, then I don't have a problem with including that too since that is representative of a certain demography of the Scottish population (although I can only presume such a song would be authored in Ulster?). Claíomh Solais (talk) 23:24, 3 November 2017 (UTC)