Talk:1969 Taiwanese legislative election
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Move discussion in progress
[edit]There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:2020 Taiwan presidential election which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:35, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
Requested move 21 January 2020
[edit]- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 22:52, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
- 1969 Taiwanese legislative election → 1969 Taiwanese legislative by-election
- 1972 Taiwanese legislative election → 1972 Taiwanese legislative by-election
- 1975 Taiwanese legislative election → 1975 Taiwanese legislative by-election
- 1980 Taiwanese legislative election → 1980 Taiwanese legislative by-election
- 1983 Taiwanese legislative election → 1983 Taiwanese legislative by-election
- 1986 Taiwanese legislative election → 1986 Taiwanese legislative by-election
- 1989 Taiwanese legislative election → 1989 Taiwanese legislative by-election
– WP:NCELECT. Ythlev (talk) 19:33, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose as proposed These were not entirely by-elections; they were held not only to replace existing members, but also for additional seats to take into account population growth. From the 1972 elections onwards, the newly-elected MPs did not serve indefinite terms, so were up for re-election, making subsequent elections more like regular elections (also the rationale doesn't make sense; the elections are already correctly titled in line with the naming convention, so it's not really a valid reason by itself to move them). Number 57 22:11, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- In the guidelines, by-elections are titled "by-election", which these are because they are opposed to general elections, as defined in that article. In these articles, they are referred to as supplementary elections. I don't know if that's a proper term, but it is certainly less understood to the common reader. In any case, these elections are not general elections, so a distinction should be made in the titles. Ythlev (talk) 23:02, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose. These were not by-elections. They were not used to "fill an office that has become vacant between general elections". They instead generated the First Legislative Yuan's supplementary members, who were from Taiwan and, since the 1972 election, had their own fixed term of three years, while the original members of the First Legislative Yuan were elected in the 1948 election in mainland China and stayed in office until 1991. These supplementary elections were de facto general election in Taiwan and should not be renamed to "by-election". --Neo-Jay (talk) 06:21, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- They can only be considered de facto general elections if only the additional members had power, which wasn't the case. According to the Oxford English dictionary, a by-election is one that "fills a vacancy during a government's term of office", which was de facto from 1948 to 1991. It does not say whether that vacancy has to be existing or can be new. And really, I don't mind it be called something else, just not the same as the ones since 1991 because they are completely different types. Ythlev (talk) 06:44, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- The First Legislative Yuan had two parts: the original members and the supplementary members. Only the original members' term of office was from 1948 to 1991. The supplementary members' term of office was basically three years. And the members elected in the 1989 election served in office from 1990 to 1993, even after the original members terminated their term of office in 1991. We cannot say that the supplementary members filled the vacancy during the original members' term of office. The difference was that the original members were from mainland China and the supplementary members were from Taiwan. That's why these elections can be seen as de facto general election in Taiwan. --Neo-Jay (talk) 07:04, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- By that logic, the current Legislative Yuan has three parts, those elected from constituencies, party-list and indigenous. If they have the same titles and powers, the distinction is meaningless. And as I said, I'm open to calling them something else. Ythlev (talk) 07:14, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- In Chinese language, these elections are called as "增額選舉" (literally "supplementary elections"), not "補選" (by-elections). Can you find any reliable source in English language calling them as by-elections? If so, that would make this move proposal more convincing. Otherwise, renaming these to by-elections might be original research. --Neo-Jay (talk) 07:29, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- By that logic, the current Legislative Yuan has three parts, those elected from constituencies, party-list and indigenous. If they have the same titles and powers, the distinction is meaningless. And as I said, I'm open to calling them something else. Ythlev (talk) 07:14, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- The First Legislative Yuan had two parts: the original members and the supplementary members. Only the original members' term of office was from 1948 to 1991. The supplementary members' term of office was basically three years. And the members elected in the 1989 election served in office from 1990 to 1993, even after the original members terminated their term of office in 1991. We cannot say that the supplementary members filled the vacancy during the original members' term of office. The difference was that the original members were from mainland China and the supplementary members were from Taiwan. That's why these elections can be seen as de facto general election in Taiwan. --Neo-Jay (talk) 07:04, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- They can only be considered de facto general elections if only the additional members had power, which wasn't the case. According to the Oxford English dictionary, a by-election is one that "fills a vacancy during a government's term of office", which was de facto from 1948 to 1991. It does not say whether that vacancy has to be existing or can be new. And really, I don't mind it be called something else, just not the same as the ones since 1991 because they are completely different types. Ythlev (talk) 06:44, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- Weak oppose There is a point in that these were not what one would commonly think as a full "legislative election" nowadays, but they were not by-elections in the literal meaning of the word either:
election used to fill an office that has become vacant between general elections
. This was not the case here: as has been pointed out, elected members since 1972 had definite terms, and these elections were not held "between general elections" either: these were the general elections, or at the closest thing you could think of it at the time. Further, there is a general feeling that a "by-election" refers to filling vacants in a constituency-wide basis, not at a more general level such as these could be. "Supplementary elections" would be the closest you could get them to be, but I don't think that copes well with WP:COMMONNAME outside Taiwan, so as per WP:NCELECT the current titles would be the most complete and unambiguous ones. I do not have a strong feeling on this, though, so I am casting a weak oppose only. Impru20talk 20:42, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.