Talk:140th Infantry Regiment (United States)

Military history: North America / United States

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Training regiment

Hi Kges1901 I have been amassing these units at Category:Training regiments of the United States Army National Guard but have been moving the pages to XXth Regiment (Untied States). Any problem if I move this one? Cheers Buckshot06 (talk) 22:53, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

National Guard RTIs are simply the rebranded state officer candidate schools and it is of note that they do not have a standard organization across states (compare the 154th RTI and the 218th RTI. So they are not training regiments in the same sense that the USAR training regiments, which can cover basic training, are. Another issue is that the RTIs inherit heraldry, but not lineage. For example, the 515th RTI in New Mexico does not inherit the 515th Coast Artillery's lineage because the 515th Support Battalion exists with the combat unit lineage. Given these differences, the article should not be moved as it is almost entirely about the 140th as a combat unit, which is much more notable than the RTI. If you want to categorize the RTIs, it would make more sense to create redirects to the state national guard articles that mention the RTI (or write separate articles exclusively about RTIs). IMO the differences are so fundamental that RTIs and the combat units sharing their numbers and heraldry should not be covered in the same article (a sentence about where RTIs get heraldry would be necessary, but more than that about the combat unit is unnecessary). Kges1901 (talk) 23:12, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is where my approach of focusing on the numerical designation diverges sharply from the bizarre lineage rules. 140? vaguely attached to 140th Inf Regt? Must be the same thing!! Categorize away!! Are you saying that the 515th's lineage in New Mexico is now with a unit for which we do not have an article, while we have an article about the 515th Coast Artillery? And that NGB/states are keeping the numerical designations with the RTIs, but allotting the lineage somewhere else, to, possibly, a unit with a different numerical designation? Buckshot06 (talk) 01:02, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If necessary after we get this sorted out I can apply to have the category deleted, and we can figure something else out. Buckshot06 (talk) 01:04, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, TIOH says that the current 515th Support Battalion has lineage to the 515th Coast Artillery. Or take Oklahoma's 189th RTI where the number is from the 189th Field Artillery parent regiment, but the lineage is part of the 45th FAB (the former fires brigade). And I can't confirm this since the lineage is not online, but 2-183rd Cav is the RSTA squadron for the 116th IBCT and the Virginia Army National Guard RTI is the 183rd. This makes sense because National Guard goes by units in the same armory or organizational continuity, and RTIs do not have any of those associations. Kges1901 (talk) 01:17, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK. We're going to come across these RTIs frequently in the course of untangling all these lineages, so can you identify some solid sources about what RTIs are and what they do, authoritative Army ones? Then we can write a short text in an article explaining that, and we can add to a list following that text with the designations, state affiliations, and reasons-for-the-number-picked as we find them. Buckshot06 (talk) 01:32, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There do not appear to be many specific sources specifically about RTIs as they seem to fulfill a function for the National Guard analogous to the active army's schools and courses. For example, see a National Guardsman's account of his time as an RTI instructor. Kges1901 (talk) 12:27, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]