Talk:10 Downing Street/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Tim riley (talk · contribs) 17:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Will review. Beginning first read-through today. Will report back soonest. Tim riley (talk) 17:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

This looks promising. First batch of suggestions, following initial read-through

• General
  • Number Ten or Number 10 – you use both, and should be consistent
• Lead
  • The Americanism "on Downing Street" is becoming increasingly common, but should IMO be resisted in so very English an article: "in Downing Street" is the idiomatic English usage.
  • British Monarch – why capitalise Monarch?
  • Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher is another Americanism (or tabloid journalese). This wording recurs below and should, IMO, be corrected.
• The original Number 10
  • There are too many stubby paragraphs in this section. The third, fourth and fifth paragraphs could usefully be combined.
• A "vast, awkward house": 1735–1902
  • Lord Charles Townshend – was he a lord? Tim riley (talk) 21:08, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Charles Townshend was the second son of a Viscount, so he would only have become a hereditary peer if his older brother died before him without leaving an heir to the title. As the son of a Viscount he was entitled to the courtesy title "The Honourable". A limited number of the sons of hereditary peers are entitled to be called "Lord" without actually being Lords, but their fathers all held the heigher ranks in the UK peerage. The article about him says he was entitled to the honorific Right Honourable, more prestigious than being an Honourable, and he wuld have earned that when he became a cabinet member, and thus a member of the Privy Council. Geo Swan (talk) 18:54, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm getting worried about this review. Is there anyone at the other end? Tim riley (talk) 19:41, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll leave the review open for a further week, after which I'll fail it if no progress has been made. Tim riley (talk) 16:34, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for your read-through and suggestions. I'm very sorry for the delay. I have made the changes where you have suggested except for "Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher" etc, as I'm not sure yet what would work better. Cloudbound (talk) 19:05, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm pleased there is someone there! I'll carry on with my review. Tim riley (talk) 20:08, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Second and concluding lot of queries

• The original Number 10
  • "Prime Minister Winston Churchill" – I think most people who read this article will know that Churchill was prime minister.
  • "They had several distinguished residents" – citation needed for this sentence.
  • "Downing probably never lived in his townhouses" – ditto
• History of the "House at the Back" before 1733
  • "From this time, members of the royal family and the government usually lived in the "House at the Back"" – sounds rather crowded. Might be clearer in the passive: "From this time, the "House at the Back" was usually occupied by members of the royal family or the government."
  • "The Litchfield family followed James II into exile" – they were the Lee family, surely?
  • "envoy from Hanover and advisor to George I" – a pity to use the American spelling "advisor" rather than the traditional English "adviser"
• The First Lord's House: 1733–1735 – why capitalise "House"?
  • "the London Daily Post" – no italics?
• A "vast, awkward house": 1735–1902
  • First para has no citations
  • "He had accepted it as a gift from the Crown for future First Lords of the Treasury" – you've already said this in an earlier section
  • Third para has no citations
  • "The Morning Herald" – italics?
  • "the Tithe Commissioners, Number 20. They deteriorated from neglect" – poor Tithe Commissioners! But you probably refer to the buildings
• Revival and recognition: 1902–1960
  • "for all of his three premierships bare briefly from 1886 to 1887" – eh?
  • "his home on Arlington Street in St. James's" – you mean "in Arlington Street" surely. No call for the Americanism "on Arlington Street"
  • "on Lord North Street - ditto
  • "because Lady Wilson wanted "a proper home"" – she was Mrs Wilson at the time and should be so referred to here.
  • "he maintained the public illusion of living in Number 10" – this is not cited and is, I think, wrong. It was public knowledge at the time that he didn't move back into Number 10, and why.

    Later – I thought so. Here is The Guardian on the matter in March 1974. (It also shows that "in" not "on" is the English idiom for streets):

    Mrs and Mrs Wilson have not yet moved across to Downing Street from their nearby adjacent home in Lord North Street, and it is being suggested that they may not move at all. Mrs Wilson never liked Number Ten, and I am given to understand that her shapely foot has been hard down against moving into the mausoleum once more. Clearly Harold will have to work from Number Ten, continue to use the place as the Prime Ministerial office and so on, but home may continue to be in Lord North Street. (Walker, Martin. "Open file", The Guardian, 8 March 1974, p. 15)

  • "Number 10 became a gathering place for protestors (and two further protestors shortly after it) but in the image caption you spell the noun as "protesters". The latter is more usual, and is preferable.
• Rebuilding Number 10: 1960–1990
  • Second para lacks citations
  • "Admiralty House" – perhaps link to Admiralty House, London?
  • "Reconstructed exactly as in the old Number 10 included the following" – very strange phrasing
  • "and the 3rd floor extended" – "third" rather than "3rd"?
• The front door and entrance hall
  • I don't think you need tell us in both the first and second paras that the front door is famous
  • "A Chippendale guard's chair" – Unless the guard is a male stripper I think perhaps "a guard's chair designed by Chippendale" might be a safer way of putting it.
• The main staircase
  • "Often in films Hedsor House in Buckinghamshire has been used as a replica location due to its near identical main staircase." – This lacks a citation, and I question its relevance in any case.
  • "The table is usually surrounded by twenty-three carved, solid mahogany chairs" – surely the number of chairs depends on the size of the cabinet, which varies considerably from ministry to ministry?
  • "Former US President Ronald Reagan was the first non-Cabinet member to sit at the table during a Cabinet meeting." – That is not cited, and cannot possibly be true. Non-members of the cabinet often include the Chief Whip and the Attorney General who are frequently summoned to attend specific meetings of the cabinet.
  • "The Cabinet Room also acts as a library; outgoing Prime Ministers traditionally donate to the collection." – lacks citation.
• The Terracotta Room
  • This section has no citations, but does have an outbreak of WP:OVERLINK. You don't need another link for Walpole, let alone one for "Prime Minister". Terry is linked earlier, and if you must link to That Woman, she is mentioned unlinked in the first para of this section, but the link is at present in the second.
• The White Drawing Room
  • No citations.
• The State Dining Room
  • First para lacks citations.
  • "First used on 4 April 1826, Soane was the guest of honour" – needs rewriting. Soane wasn't first used in 1826.
• Furnishings
  • The long first para has no citations.
• Number 10's 250th anniversary: 1985
  • "a grand dinner at Number 10 in the State Dining Room for her living predecessors —Harold Macmillan, Alec Douglas-Home, Harold Wilson, Edward Heath, and James Callaghan—and Elizabeth II. This reads very oddly. Better to say "a grand dinner at Number 10 in the State Dining Room for Elizabeth II and the surviving former prime ministers: Harold Macmillan, Alec Douglas-Home, Harold Wilson, Edward Heath, and James Callaghan.
• Prime Minister's Office
  • "Though Number 10 is formally part of the Cabinet Office, it reports to the Cabinet Secretary" – why "though"? The Cabinet Secretary is the head of the Cabinet Office, so this is hardly surprising
  • "which is currently Sir Jeremy Heywood" – "who", not "which", surely? And on the whole it might be safer to leave the incumbent's name out: see WP:DATED.
  • "into 3 directorates … 3 units" – "three" rather than "3"?
  • Quote box" – another American "advisor" has crept in
  • "a 'Prime Ministers' department" – use of quotation marks needs attention.
  • "with a number of units … now report" – not English
  • Whoever put the cn tag on the last para was quite right.
• Notes
  • The citation format is inconsistent. Some cites end "Date accessed xyz", and others "Retrieved xyz". The latter are not even consistent among themselves: note 81 is "Retrieved 1 June 2009" but note 82 has merely "Retrieved January 2010".
• References
  • The books need ISBNs (or OCLC numbers for the older, pre-ISBN ones). You can find them at WorldCat

That's all from me. Some are matters of style, which it would be wrong of me to make a sticking point for promotion to GA, but the sporadic lack of citations will have to be dealt with if the article is to be promoted. Happy to discuss any point if wished. Tim riley (talk) 10:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for reviewing. It might take me a little while but I'll be making a go of this over the next few days. Cloudbound (talk) 23:19, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Agreed with the nominator that this article should be withdrawn and put up again in due course. Tim riley (talk) 20:13, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Comparative size of the living areas...

I found the two floor plans the article links to quite interesting. They are of the ground floor, and the first floor (American 2nd floor). I found what llooks like a floor plan from the same series showing the second floors of number 100 and 11, and number 11's third floor. http://www.deconcrete.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/10-Downing-Street_Second-Floor-Plan-494x471.gif

I also found this interesting image apparently from 1949. It shows the complex from the rear, labeling many of the key rooms.

One thing that struck me was the lack of washrooms.

There are close to 20 bedrooms on the 2nd and 3rd floors and one kitchen and dining room. I wonder whether that kitches serves the residents of number 11, while the main kitchen in the basement serves number 10.

The second floor living section adjacent to Downing Street has multiple staircase, the but the rear living section, and number 11's third floor, each seem to have been served by only a single staircase -- at least at the time the floorplans were made. I think that would be a violation of modern construction codes. So would the dearth of bedrooms.

Some attic space is not shown in the image I found -- which may be a sign the floorplan dates back to when the PM had servants who lived on-site, and that the missing sections were the servant's quarters.

The office space used by the PM's staff also seemed short on washrooms. Geo Swan (talk) 18:08, 5 May 2013 (UTC)