Talk:İncili Çavuş

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A fact from İncili Çavuş appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 9 July 2011 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Suleiman the Magnificent supposedly gave İncili Çavuş a pearl to wear to distinguish him from other sergeants?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2011/July.

Wikipedia

About sources

Unfortunately, all of sources:

are portal website. So they are not Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources.

Takabeg (talk) 11:32, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Definition of Çavuş

I have added the phrase "çavuş may be more appropriatelly translated as emissary in the 17th century" which is immediatelly tagged citation needed. OK, Çavuş means sergeant in modern army organization in Turkey. But 17th century Ottoman army didn't use these ranks. Their ranks were then ağa, sekban, turnacı, etc etc. The title çavuş belonged not to a military rank but it rather belonged to other posts. In Turkish Dictionary [1] there are two historic definitions, one civil and the other one military. But even the military definition is not about a rank. In the historical definiton of the Ottoman Empire by Selcuk Aksin Somel (Scarecrow Press, Oxford) the title çavuşbaşı belonged to the post who was responsible in protocol and ceremonies. I used the word emissary from the Cross word dictionary [2] Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 12:15, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dictionaries don't refer to İncili Çavuş. In Yeniçeri organisation there were ranks such as Baş Çavuşu, Piyade Çavuşu, Süvari Çavuşu, Topçu Çavuşu, Baş Çavuş, Emir Çavuşu, Duacı Çavuş ve Haberci Çavuş. We don't have to write without souces. Becuase in Wikipedia Wikipedia:Verifiability is very important. Otherwise -> Wikipedia:No original research. Takabeg (talk) 12:38, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are a encyclopaedia contributer. Please be more serious. I don't talk about İncili Çavuş. İncili Çavuş is a person and not a title. For the title, I've given sources. Historical çavuş is not the equivalent of modern çavuş. So please don't try to translate it as sergeant. That is incorrect information and you are supposed to present correct information. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 13:03, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm serious. http://wordsdomination.com/chiaus.html is not Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. Takabeg (talk) 13:08, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Osmanlı ülkesindeki elçi ve konsolosların her birinin birer çavuşu ile bir veya daha çok yeniçerisi bulunmakta, bunlara yasakçı veya kavas denilmekteydi. Elçilik kavasları 1826 yılına kadar yeniçeriler arasından seçilir ve,,,, (Türkiye Diyanet Vakfı İslâm ansiklopedisi, Cilt 30)

Kavas: Elçilik ve konsolosluklarda çalışan, özel giysisi olan koroma memuru.

Çavuşlar, padişahla sefere de giderlerdi. İcabında ecnebî devletlere elçi olarak gönderilirlerdi. (Ekrem Buğra Ekinci, Osmanlı Hukuku: Adalet ve Mülk, Arı Sanat, 2008, p. 250.)

"Elçi" is not equal to çavuş. Sometimes Çavuş(s) was assigned duties related "Elçilik".

Please don't provide false information to readers !

Takabeg (talk) 13:35, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I know very well that Çavuş in Turkish means sergeant. But this is 20th century definition. ( Meaning of words may change in time. For example tr: dayı (mother's brother) also meant the ruler of the Barbary states. Now if you translate the phrase Cezayir dayısı would you translate it as "uncle of Algeria ?" Of course not. You'll use the word dey.) That is the same with çavuş. Çavuş of 17th century was much different than 20th century sergeant.In this age çavuş is a sub officer commanding some 10 soldiers. (see sergeant, squad) It was established in 1826, much later than the 17th century. In the 17th century çavuş was a much important post (see tr:Çavuş) So you can't translate çavuş of the 17th century as sergeant. Still I didn't delete your incorrect translation. I only added my sourced definition and you deleted both the definition and the reference. You say you didn't like my source. How come I don't object to your source (a story book) and you object my source (a dictionary)? OK how about TDK (Türk Dil Kurumu) dictionary ? [3] The historical definitions are 2.Osmanlı Devleti teşkilatında çeşitli hizmetler yapan görevli. 3. Osmanlı ordusunda üst komutanların buyruklarını ast komutanlara ulaştıran görevli. In either case that is not the equivalent of modern sergeant. Now I am going to use this definition. Please don't delete the definition or source again. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:21, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't translate, Warren S. Walker and Ahmet Edip Uysal translated to "Pearl Sergeant". Nobody said that çavuş is equal to modern çavuş. Takabeg (talk) 10:09, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]