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Drunken Sailor?

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I heard somewhere that the tune for this was imperfectly copied by English sailors who had contact with Irish sailors and eventually became "What shall we do with the drunken sailor?". Is there any truth in this? There is a definite resemblance to my ear. 212.183.140.41 (talk) 11:55, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

'Bhaile, Bhaile, Abhaile

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Moved the text from the article without the ' before bhaile here. Redirected that page there. I have also seen the song being called "Oró Sé do Bheatha Abhaile", a native Gaelic speaker might be of help here. --Odoakerston 17:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Not a native Irish speaker, but a quick check to the dictionary says that "abhaile" means "(journey) homeward." That's why the apostrophe is there in the title, because "'bhaile" is a shortening of "abhaile." The ending "a" of "bheatha" and the starting "a" of "abhaile" merge when it's sung. --Kuronekoyama 05:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Here are the most common spellings;
  • Óró Sé do Bheatha 'Bhaile
  • Óró Sé do Bheatha Abhaile
  • Óró Se 'd Bheatha 'Bhaile
--Theosony (talk) 14:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Native speaker (cainteoir dúchais) here, "Bheatha 'bhaile" is the correct. Also the third example above should be " d' " and not " 'd " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.64.53 (talk) 01:20, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Original Lyrics

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Just added the original version and translated it quite literally to give a feeling for meaning of the Irish, rather than be loyal to metre or rhyme.Jamesnp (talk) 13:15, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Love it! Way more authentic than Pearse's version. Nice one.

Jdorney (talk) 11:45, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear god guys you are all a million miles off.... wtf is with the ' ? If you include the "h" then you don't have to indicate the séimhiú.

Anyway... the actual translation is more like "You, this is the town of your birth"

And I am crap at Irish as well as being Irish.


is it "Is tú díolta leis na Gallaibh." or "tú díolta leis na Gallaibh." second means "sold to the foreigners" and second is generally been sung and it seems "Gránuaile" instead of "Gráinne Mhaol" to me too.... Girayhankaya (talk) 01:14, 22 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is tú díolta leis na Gallaibh is correct, but when sung it is probably rendered as 'S tú díolta leis na Gallaibh. Likewise, I believe the title (and in the chorus) should be Óró! 'S é do bheatha 'bhaile for the same reason (in full this would be Óró! Is é do bheatha abhaile, which would translate literally as Óró! This is you're welcome home).--213.94.176.20 (talk) 19:14, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling error??

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Does the first word of the title not have two long O's: Óró. On most recordings of the song it has been spelled that way and Óró is also a common sound-word in Irish traditional music.--Theosony (talk) 14:36, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seconded - can an admin please fix?

I've moved the page to the seems-to-be-correct title. Even content of the page agree that it should be 'Óró', with two acutes. Silmethule (talk) 19:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They are called fadas mate - who the hell is maintaining this rubbish?

In HTML they are called acutes! So if you want the long accent sign (síne fada) to show up on webpages, you have to call it an acute in the HTML code. --213.94.176.20 (talk) 18:57, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

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Re: Note 5 and English translation

The fact that Frainc is used in some versions in place of Gaill should make it plain to see that Gaill actaully means French (or more precisely, Gaulish), from Gaul (the Roman name for the area now called France).--213.94.176.20 (talk) 18:58, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Non-political version

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My book of Irish ballads give different words, and says it was a song about the "hauling home" (i.e. the time after the honeymoon when the bride moved into her new husband's song). This website corroberates this story. [1] I will had something about this to the article. But I would appreciate some commentary from someone who can read Irish (Gaelic). --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 04:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

‘Erroneous’

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I’ve removed the reference to Óró Sé do Bheath Abhaile being erroneous. This is merely a different transcription. I don’t think An Caighdeán Oifigiúil makes any reference to how elision should be represented (usually it isn’t) but it seems to me that do bheath’ abhaile is just as valid as do bheatha ’bhaile, and actually makes more sense to me. The only printed source of this song I have in my possession is Ceolta Gael (Seán Óg & Mánus Ó Baoill, Cló Mercier 1975) and there it’s spelled Óró, Sé do Bheatha Abhaile. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 01:10, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Citations & "originality"

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This article has problems. It just declares one version as original with no citation or proof. The origins of folk songs is inevitably murky so we shouldn’t be pretending otherwise.

I’ve been trying to find a definitive source for the Pádraig Pearse version and though they don’t have an Irish version, CELT do have an English translation of An Dord Féinne which seems to correspond to the version at http:// pillar.ds4a.com /garden/andordfeinne.htm (had to mangle this address because of Wikipedia’s overenthusiastic spam filter!). These don’t correspond to the usual modern version in verse order or orthography, so it may be worth adding a version. Unfortunately, it’s not clear who is the author of the page at pillar.ds4a.com.

The so-called ‘original’ version (who can say if it is or not) seems to be sourced from Ceolas. It would be better if we could find the sources that Ceolas used as although quite useful, there are probably more authoritative sources. The lack of formatting of the information at Ceolas also makes it rather hard to follow what comes from which source.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 05:31, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Marshalling my sources in sections below before editing the article. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 07:00, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Jacobite version

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I haven’t been able to find a published source as yet.

Ceolas hints to follow up:

Hannagan and Clandillon, 'Londubh and Chairn, No. 57 (Welcome Home Jacobite Song; and note mention ibid., p. 28, of a Tyrone version of the tune to the same piece).

Hogg (Jacobite Relics), I, 3, II, 138.

Ah, these seem to be references quoted from Hill Country Tunes (Samuel Preston Bayard, American Folklore Society 1944), copied verbatim including misprints.

James Hogg’s Jacobite Relics (1819) doesn’t shed much light. Bayard may have been referring to a class of similar tunes rather than Séarlas Óg in particular.

Haven’t been able to track down a copy of Londubh an Chairn. There doesn’t seem to be a copy in Australia.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 07:00, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion on IRTRAD-L leads to the source used in Londubh an Chairn - Céad de Ċeoltaiḃ Ulaḋ (Céad de Cheoltaibh Uladh 1915) by Énrí Ó Muirgheasa.
Page 151
Page 303 [notes]

87. Óró, ’sé do ḃeaṫa aḃaile

(See page 151.)

This little Jacobite relic I got from Nancy Tracey, Co. Tyrone, and also from Cáit Ní Ċeallaċáin, an old woman 90 years of age in Ballor, Fanad, Co. Donegal. It has a catchy, popular air. A refrain somewhat similar to this one was common in Farney, but the song to which it belonged was lost before my time.

Hó, ró, ró, ’sé do ḃeaṫa un a’ ḃaile,
Hó, ró, ró, ós cionn duine eile ;
Hó, ró, ró, ’sé do ḃeaṫa un a’ ḃaile,
Tá tú amuiġ le ráiṫċe.         (Farney song).

Focla Cruaiḋe, ⁊c.

Séarlas,
Prince Charles Edward, “the young pretender,” grandson of King James II.
Ruainne,
a bit, a shred, a single hair.
Cascairt,
fighting, slaughtering.
leis na Franncaiġiḃ :
means in company with the French.
Anois ag teaċt an tsaṁraiḋ,
now at the coming of summer.
Agus bainfiḋ siad, ⁊c.,
and they will make the heretics dance, i.e., set them on the run, hunt them out.
☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 09:59, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]


For reference, here is the web-sourced Jacobite version that was originally in the article (before I replaced it with the above).

Souchon, Christian (24 July 2010). "Oro! Se Do Bheatha Bhaile". Jacobite Songs. Retrieved 15 December 2012.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 05:32, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Joyce / The ‘Hauling home’ version

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P.W. Joyce’s Old Irish Folk Music and Songs (1909) is available at the Internet Archive and I have extracted the rather confusing quotes used at Ceolas below. Ceolas also refer to nos. 281 & 729 in this book, but they seem to be different tunes.

p. 121

The following 34 airs (to “She’s the dear Maid to me”) were sent to me from time to time during 1884 by Mr. Francis Hogan of South Lodge, Brenormore, near Carrick-on-Suir, a good musician and a great enthusiast in Irish music and songs. He must have been then well over seventy years of age. Some of these he wrote from memory, and others he copied from MSS.

p. 130

275. ORO, ’SE DO BHEATHA A BHAILE: ORO, WELCOME HOME!
A Hauling-home Song.

The “Hauling home” was bringing home the bride to her husband’s house after marriage. It was usually a month or so after the wedding, and was celebrated as an occasion next only in importance to the wedding itself.

The bridegroom brought home his bride at the head of a triumphal procession—all on cars or on horseback. I well remember one where the bride rode on a pillion behind her husband. As they enter the house the bridegroom is supposed to speak or sing:—

Oro, sé do bheatha a bhaile, is fearr liom tu ná céad bo bainne:
Oro, sé do bheatha a bhaile, thá tu maith le rátha.

Oro, welcome home, I would rather have you than a hundred milch cows:
Oro, welcome home, ’tis you are happy with prosperity [in store for you].

Here is Mr. Hogan’s note on this air:---“This song used to be played at the ‘Hauling Home,’ or the bringing home of a wife. The piper, seated outside the house at the arrival of the party, playing hard [i.e. with great spirit]: nearly all who were at the wedding a month previous being in the procession. Oh, for the good old times!”

This tune is called in Stanford-Petrie an “ancient clan march”: and it is set in the Major, with many accidentals, but another setting is given in the Minor. I give it here as Mr. Hogan wrote it, in its proper Minor form. In several particulars this setting differs from Dr. Petrie’s two versions. It was a march tune, as he calls it: but the March was home to the husband’s house. Dr. Petrie does not state where he procured his two versions.

And who is this Mr. Hogan?

Page 121

The following 34 airs (to “She’s the dear Maid to me”) were sent to me from time to time during 1884 by Mr. Francis Hogan of South Lodge, Brenormore, near Carrick-on-Suir, a good musician and a great enthusiast in Irish music and songs. He must have been then well over seventy years of age. Some of these he wrote from memory, and others he copied from MSS.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 07:00, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Petrie

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The Complete Collection of Irish Music (1902, 1905) contains some different versions of the music, but little textual information. Number 1425, perhaps the most relevant, is titled (old script) Ó ro! ’sé do ḃeaṫa a ḃaile (modern) Ó ro! ’sé do bheatha a bhaile and marked “Ancient clan march.”

Ceolas also cite nos. 926 (“Barrack Hill.”), 983 (untitled, Ancient Clan March) and 1056 (Welcome home Prince Charley). 926 seems to be a completely different tune.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 07:00, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pearse version

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The pillar.ds4a.com version plus CELT (i.e. Pearse’s) translation.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 07:00, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Modern version

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Ceolta Gael (Seán Óg & Mánus Ó Baoill, Cló Mercier 1975). Modern spelling (though do bé looks odd - dob é would be more standard) and different verse order.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 07:00, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Naming

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Although many recordings seem to use an elided form of the name (with an apostrophe), most of the sources I’ve been able to find do not. I plan to rename the page to the straightforward modern Irish form of the title unless anyone has serious objections.

Petrie (1855) has Ó ro! ’sé do ḃeaṫa a ḃaile / Ó ro! ’sé do bheatha a bhaile.

Joyce (1909) has Oro, sé do bheatha a bhaile.

Pearse (1914?) has Oró, 'se do bheatha a bhaile.

Ó Muirgheasa (1915) has Óró, ’sé do ḃeaṫa aḃaile (Óró, ’sé do bheatha abhaile) ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 02:15, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ó Baoill (1975) has Óró, sé do bheatha abhaile

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 07:55, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Auto-edits to Óró sé do bheatha abhaile

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Please stop doing the same edits to Óró sé do bheatha abhaile after I revert them. The HTML is deliberately left in the quoted text in the reference and the other reference which you keep deleting is a valid web page and a useful citation. I don't know why Wikipedia's spam filter doesn't like it, but it is a false positive.

If you wish to put a case for reverting my second reversion of your edits, please do so on the talk page for the article.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 11:37, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First off, the last one was a manual edit. Please read WP:BLACKLIST on how to add a blacklisted link. However, the link you are adding is unreliable and shouldn't be used. HTML shouldn't be used where an equivalent wikicode is found... the page will be added to CheckWiki page and will continually be overridden. This page is currently the only English wikipage with those html tags. Funny thing is the wikicode is used elsewhere on the page. Bgwhite (talk) 17:31, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I deliberately used the wikicode on the parts of the page that editors would be likely to edit. The idea was simply to keep a neutral form of the quote in the reference, but obviously it's far too important a detail to be allowed to escape. I'll try to groupthink more in future. Last time I checked, though, there wasn't a blanket ban on HTML, merely a preference for wikicode for the sake of easy editing.

As far as the link goes...

  • I didn't add it, it was already there.
  • Could you explain how you know that it is unreliable and why do you think it shouldn't be used?
  • Would it be better to pretend that we invented the quoted text?

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 04:21, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  1. The official word on HTML is, "In normal practice, wiki markup or templates are preferred within articles, but HTML is quite useful for formatting within templates."
  2. Why is the ref unreliable?... It is hosted on a free site that is known for scams and anybody can put anything they want. Nothing on the page says who/what/where wrote the article. Did it come from a book, journal or other reliable source? Don't know because it doesn't say. There is absolutely no info about it except it was posted on a free site.
  3. Of course not it isn't not better to pretend. This is what Google is for. one, two and three. There were others listed. Bgwhite (talk) 06:09, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

None of those three sources is more reliable than the one you distrust, in fact they don’t give any source for their versions either, they don’t show the important differences in the Patrick Pearse c.1915 version as evidenced by the translation at CELT and two of them have spelling mistakes or have been corrected or aligned with a particular dialect. In fact, the only Google result that does correspond with the translation at CELT is the one you want to exclude.

I have spent quite some time using Google on this topic, strangely enough, and if you’d looked at more than three results you would quickly see that most of them are fairly worthless; anecdotal versions originating in mailing lists or forums and many, many copied from just a couple of sources (very often Wikipedia).

If you bothered to investigate the pillar.ds4a.com site properly you would have found, as I did, the author's details (simply go up one directory). Yes, it's a free site, but paying for something doesn't automatically make it legitimate. Some judgement may be required. Yesterday I was looking at some e-books, also searchable on Google Books, focussing on the Kabbalistic implications of Finnegans Wake. Yes, I could pay $15 each for the (so far) 6 volumes, but would that make it an authoritative source about James Joyce?

This is not a perfect source - the author gives no bibliography or contact details - but it provides a pivotal version that accords with other evidence so I can't see why it shouldn't stay in the article.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 04:22, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The content has nothing to with being reliable or not. By definition, a published book by a reputable publisher is more reliable than a somebody's personal website that lists nothing about where the info comes from. Per WP:USERGENERATED, forums, mailing lists and personal websites are unreliable and cannot be used. Just because you like the information better doesn't mean you ignore Wikipedia reliability rules.
Long story short, the reference will be removed. It may take one, two or three reliable reference to get what you want, but only reliable references are to be used.
If you disagree, take it to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Bgwhite (talk) 07:03, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing to do with liking whatsoever. It's merely consistent with other sourced material. If you want to vandalise the article for the sake of extreme pedantry, that's up to you.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 09:14, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pearse version

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The source's chorus of the Pearse version is nonsense. "Óró sé do bheatha abhaile", as the article tells you, can be roughly translated "Hurrah, you are welcome home". Why sé would suddenly be changed to be "'s é", presumably a contraction of "is é", which would be "[copula] [it-male], is a mystery to me. I also take massive issue with the translation. Even ignoring the fact that for absolutely no reason whatsoever, it just leaves large passages untranslated, some of it is just a clear sign of incompetence. "Fenians of Fál"? No. Just, no. Anyone with a basic familiarity with the Irish language in a modern context will be able to tell you that "Fianna Fáil" means "soldiers of destiny" - fáil being the genitive of fál, destiny, and fianna the plural of fiann, soldier, much as in "Amhrán na bhFiann", the soldiers' song, and Lia Fáil, the rock of destiny. It's the name of a party, for God's sake, and the article about that party also confirms it means "soldiers of destiny": Fianna Fáil. The Fenians were a minor Republican group, and "Fál" isn't even an English word...I'm sorry, but the sources – as I'm sure other speakers of the language, native or otherwise, will be able to confirm – are just wrong. Unless anyone has a legitimate reason to object, I'd like to correct the glaring spelling error in the original Irish, and correct the stupidity of this translation. I'm sorry, I really am, but even Google Translate could do a better job than this.--Newbiepedian (Hailing Frequencies) 17:55, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fix away... Nice to see somebody who knows Irish/Gaelic fix things up. Bgwhite (talk) 00:42, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted your edits, Newbiepedian. The reason for the discrepancy in the two texts is that they come from different sources. They are also supposed to be verbatim quotes of the sources, avoiding original research. The difference between 's é, 'sé and sé as contractions of is é are very, very, very minor and hardly what I would call a "glaring spelling error" in the context of the many changes in Irish orthography over the centuries.

Incompetence or not, you would see if you checked the source that the translation is Pearse's own work and as such it seems legitimate to leave it as it is under the heading Pearse version.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 07:24, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Typical nonsensical Wikilawyering. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.186.25 (talk) 12:41, 17 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Tempting to say ‘typical anonymous carping’, but what would be the point?
It’s hardly Wikilawyering. If we say we’re presenting a quotation of text, it’s just misleading to then edit it however well intentioned. That’s original research.
I reverted Newbiepedian’s edit back in February, but I see that some well-meaning anonymous soul has done it again. Can we please stop editing what it a quotation?
☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 01:14, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oro, Oro - the Fureys

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I was wondering if the popular song "Oro, Oro", by the Traveller band the Fureys should be included in this article. I don't believe the song is noteworthy enough to merit it's own article, never having been released as a single or risen high on a major chart, but is popular enough and important enough to the evolution and cultrural importance of this song to merit mention somewhere in this article, possibly in the history section, where modern versions of the song are mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.253.125 (talk) 19:21, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lyrics should not be part of the article

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Per WP:NPS and WP:NOTLYRICS, the lyrics have been removed. Please do not restore the entire lyrics to the song/poem. However, if particular passages are relevant to explaining the song, then they should be cited and included as appropriate. The Dissident Aggressor 20:16, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think this was an extreme application of the policy. Surely the spirit was that Wikipedia should not be a repository for lyrics alone, but including the content of what you’re talking about is not inherently evil. I hope you’ve also removed lyrics from every national anthem page as well just to be consistent.
The other problem with your application of the policy here is that they are not just lyrics, but lyrics in another language. How can the content be usefully discussed on the English Wikipedia without including the translation?
Looking at your contributions to this article it seems like your main interest here is in being a Wiki policeman rather than contributing anything of substance. I wish you well with that sad avocation. --☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 12:35, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the ad-hominem attack negates the points about removing the lyrics. Discussing the content doesn't require the full lyircs and translation. Toddst1 (talk) 13:27, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Surprised to see this -- folk songs on Wikipedia usually include lyrics, and I'm looking now and I don't see them on wikisource. In particular, because folk songs are short, I think it is usually reasonable to simply include the full quotation. I think this article suffers from not linking to an authoritative version of the lyrics, and if we're going to go deleting folk song lyrics I'd like to see a disciplined approach where they are migrated to wikisource and linked to, not just deleted without adding anything back. Knightofairplanes (talk) 21:14, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Authorship and miscellanea

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At least one source seems to think that Joyce actually was the author: ""The Wind That Shakes the Barley" is an Irish ballad written by Robert Dwyer Joyce (1836-1883), a Limerick-born poet and professor of English literature." As much as I know about the folklorists of that era in different countries, the issues of authorship can be contested and convoluted at best, so I suspect it might not be that simple. But there might be something in the comments, so if someone would check them from more serious sources and make the appropriate additions to the article, it would be greatly appreciated: "The song is written from the perspective of a doomed young Wexford rebel who is about to sacrifice his relationship with his loved one and plunge into the cauldron of violence associated with the 1798 rebellion in Ireland. The references to barley in the song derive from the fact that the rebels often carried barley oats in their pockets as provisions for when on the march. This gave rise to the post-rebellion phenomenon of barley growing and marking the "croppy-holes," mass unmarked graves which slain rebels were thrown into, symbolising the regenerative nature of Irish resistance to British rule." [2] --Oop (talk) 01:41, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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