Talk:Éamon de Valera/Archive 1

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Erskine Childers did NOT sign the 1922 treaty and I'm not allowed to edit the offending page.

Could whoever keeps changing de Valera to De Valera, please stop. He and every member of his family spell it with a small 'd' not a large one. OK JTD

I'm one of those guilty of this. I apologise. I think the confusion arises when his surname is used at the beginning of a sentence when it is always appears as "De Valera".

No problem. We historians sometimes get annoyed over the smallest things! JTD 06:59 Dec 16, 2002 (UTC)

Eamon de Valera's nickname was always spelt as 'deV, never 'Dev'. Trust deV to cause problems!!! JTD 00:12 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

Excellent. There is someone else here who has read or knows of Boland's book. I actually (somehow) managed to find a copy, which is difficult given that it was vanity-published without an ISBN. Good point on adding in the line about the spelling in the book. I suppose the thing about books, particularly in the old days of 'hot metal', was that you had to presume that the person laying out the page knew how deV used his name. If he didn't, then Dev or DeV or even De V could be written. (Reminds me of the American who wrote a book about 'Mick Collins', sent it to the publisher, who sent it to the printer, who couldn't read the guy's handwriting, and ending up producing a book on 'Rick Collin' . JTD 00:58 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

This article could use a NPOV mention of the end of war speech in response to Churchill's speech. Its perspective on the role of power and the position of weak nations has a continuing relevance today. PML.

Good point. I'll see if I can dig up a copy of it. STÓD/ÉÍRE 00:34 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

It's accessible at [1]; I link to it in an article of mine at [2] where I looked at that perspective myself, in relation to the Afghanistan issues. PML.

Could 149.101.1.126 please stop adding in POV additions to this page. And please also stop breaking links. [[Sinead de Valera|Sinead Bean de Valera]] means that the link page is at Sinead de Valera, with Sinead Bean de Valera used in the box because that is how she called herself. Turning it to Sinead Bean de Valera breaks the link. If you don't know the rules of wiki, please check them. FearÉIREANN 20:26 21 Jun 2003 (UTC)

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What caused deV's eyesight to fail so badly? PMA 21:18, Jan 8, 2004 (UTC)

Images

Are there any freely available images of de Valera with Neville Chamberlain which could be used to illustrate Neville_Chamberlain#Relations_with_Ireland? (That article could use a few more images given the amount of text.) If not, which would be the closest and most appropriate image of deV to use? Timrollpickering 14:43, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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How is his name pronounced? Ground 02:23, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well I don't do SAMPA, but roughly "Ay-mun dev-a-lair-ah" -- Arwel 00:41, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

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One of the pictures appears 3 times on the page !!

Fr Thomas Wheelwright

An anonymous editor has just changed the description of Fr Thomas Wheelwright from deV's step-brother to half-brother. I was a bit doubtful as the step-brother description has stood for a long time, but this reference on Roots Web describes deV visiting his mother, then known as Catherine Wheelwright, so I suppose it would be correct to describe them as half-brothers. -- Arwel 00:41, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Illigitimacy?

Concerning this: Does anyone know what year de Valera's mother emigrated to New York? I seem to recall it was 1879 (de Valera was born in 1882) but I may be mistaken. I point this out because one alledged father was a local man, a neighbour of his mother's back in Ireland. If she did indeed land in NYC in 1879 then it can be demonstrated that this claim, at least, has no basis in fact.

It might also be useful for those interested to read the article in the Irish genealogical quarterly, "Irish Roots" ("Vivian de Valera: The Search Continues", Irish Roots, No. 49, Spring 2004). Also, in his memoir of 2004, de Valera's youngest son, Terry, addressed this issue in amazing depth and gave his father a family tree of quite some depth. But I have yet to see a single shred of evidence corobborating it!

The fact of the matter is that there is no evidence for the existance of a man called Vivian de Valera, Eamon's supposed father.

For myself, I do not see his possible illigitimacy as a slur - though some, especially the likes of Terry de Valera most certainly would, given his relationship and the era he was raised in. The only persons yet living who could give us a definitive answer to this puzzle have not done so; perhaps that will change when the last of de Valera's children dies? Fergananim

Fergananim, I think the relevant part of what Terry de Valera has to say is regarding the registration of de Valera's birth and baptism, his mother's registration with the maternity hospital, etc. As you say, the family tree etc does nothing to prove his case unless there's some documentary evidence out there to back it up. I think the rumour regarding the local landowner being de Valera's father can be ruled out - even Tim Pat has acknowledged it, having ascertained that Kate Coll arrived in the U.S. in 1879. I thought the photo of Vivion de Valera did bear a family resemblance to Éamon, allowing for the fact that the latter looks more like his mother. Cill Ros 00:34, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Apparently there is a TV series being made right now that goes into a lot of detail about deV's paternity. I just heard a bit about it on the gravevine. Like earlier studies, AFAIK it has failed to find any evidence that Kate Coll was married when she gave birth to Éamon. In fact it has supposedly shown pretty clearly that the father of her son was an immigrant from Cuba with whom she had a short relationship. Single women who emigrated had a habit of claiming to be widows when they returned with a child. It was the standard explanation which usually no-one, least of all the family at the time, ever believed. But her son and descendants tend to stick rigidly to the 'Mammy was married to Mr. so and so' belief. I believe however that the younger generation of de Valeras all accept that she had Éamon out of wedlock. Claiming a foreign name as the father was usually done because it meant there was no danger that a friend of her family would know someone who knew someone who happened to know her supposed husband if she claimed he was a Tom O'Leary from Cork. The chances of anyone in Limerick or Clare knowing someone who knew someone who knew a de Valera in Cuba were slim. FearÉIREANN 03:35, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Its amazing how rumour and innuendo can be accepted as factual information by some people. Tim Pat Coogan suggests that de Valera was illegitimate, the love-child of a trist between his mother and the local promiscuous landlord. His souces for this are rumours contained in Richard Mulcahy's papers, a man who hated de Valera with a passion. The first speaker on this section is totally correct, Kate Coll went to America in 1879 and de Valera wasn't born until 1882. How he could be this love-child of an English landlord is utterly impossible unless like Tim Pat Coogan one believes that women take over three years to give birth. There is evidence on de Valera's father its just that Coogan didn't bother to find any. The slurs about his legitimacy should be removed. Lest people feel that it is precious to reject these claims it is important to remember that this kind of innuendo was first started during the Treaty debates by his opponents and continued well into the 1940s when de Valera was alleged to be a Spanish bastard and a Spanish Jew among other things. Just like the stuff about the Easter Rising which comes from the discredited Max Caulfield its nothing new its just rather sad that people give Coogan any credence on this topic. SoldierofDestiny

Footnotes..

Hi you have two footnotes in this article. One of them had become broken so I restored it for now just to make them be numbered correctly and work properly. General agreement, however, is that footnotes should only be used for citing sources I suggest converting them both to parts of subsections somewhere and using normal subsection links instead. For more information about using footnotes, please see Wikipedia:Footnote3 and all the articles linked from it. Mozzerati 15:13, 2005 Apr 2 (UTC)

The footnotes are used as they are in hundreds of thousands of articles to deal with information that is worth including but which if included in the the body of the text would go of the central message of the main text. That is the way footnotes are used in professional texts. Many historians on wikipedia regard the supposed 'general agreement' as inadequate and have made a point of not following them and will not follow them. FearÉIREANN 20:37, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Claim of German planes overflying 'Éire' to bomb Belfast docks

Re the above claim from an anonymous user: I disagree fundamentally with much of de Valera's actions during his life but the claim that he permitted the bombing of Belfast docks by German bombers is a complete fabrication and lie. Thankfully that garbage has been reverted. FearÉIREANN 20:33, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

International

Perhaps the article should have something about his role as Chair of the League of Nations and his earlier dealings with Ghandi. --ClemMcGann 23:21, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Aughavey 3 July 2005 22:20 (UTC)

Eamon de Valera Prime Minister of the Irish Free State / Irish Republic 1930

"Justifying the sacking of a properly appointed librarian in Mayo, because, though highly qualified, she was a Protestant, de Valera argued in June 1930: "I say the people of Mayo in a county where I think 98% of the population is Catholic are justified in insisting on a Catholic librarian." He went on to widen the issue indeed, and asserted: "a Protestant doctor ought not to be appointed as a dispensary doctor in a mainly Catholic area."

Not long after partition:- During the debate on compulsory Irish, Deputy Wolfe (a Protestant) protested:

"I doubt if compelling people to learn is a good way of spreading the language; it is a very difficult thing to compel an Irishman to do anything." It is still a compulsory requirement to this day (2205) that you must speak fluent Irish to gain employment as a Civil Servant in the Republic of Ireland.

Yeats a prominent Southern Irish Protestant TD in the Dail / Irish Parliament gave the Government a warning:

"If you show that this country, Southern Ireland, is going to be governed by Catholic ideas and by Catholic ideas alone, you will never get the North . . . You will put a wedge in the midst of this nation."

Aughavey, De Valera was not even Prime Minister until 1932, so your first charge against him is silly. He may have made those remarks on the Opposition benches though. - Eamonn

--- Eire's Axis Neutrality

During the course of World War Two the Irish Free State remained officially neutral. In 1938 a year before the outbreak of war de Valera took control of the three treaty ports of Queenstown, Berehaven and Lough Swilly making them unavailable for British and thus allied naval operations. These ports were of such significance to allied naval activities that the US ambassador to Eire, David Gray urged President Roosevelt to seize them.

Without the free access to ports and seaways around Northern Ireland operations would have been near impossible, as was later testified to by President Eisenhower who said, "without Northern Ireland I do not see how the American forces could have been concentrated to begin the invasion of Europe. If Ulster had not been a definite, co-operative part of the British Empire and had not been available for our use I do not see how the build up could have been carried out in England". In 1943 Churchill paid a similar tribute to Northern Irelands contribution in the face of the Irish Free State's hindrance and obstruction: "Only one channel of entry remained open. That channel remained open because loyal Ulster gave us the full use of the Northern Irish ports and waters and thus ensured the free working of the Clyde and the Mersey".

However "the bombing of Belfast by the Luftwaffe in April 1941 in which 750 people were killed was a signal lesson to the Irish government then of what might happen should they join the belligerents. In May, German planes bombed Dublin killing 34 people and destroying 300 houses in the North Strand .

While De Valera would not be coerced into joining the war, pragmatism demanded that, despite strained Anglo-Irish relations, an official blind eye be turned to what became known as the 'Donegal corridor', a route over south Donegal/north Leitrim/north Sligo , which led to the Atlantic . This concession was subject to the condition that flights be made at a good height and that the route over the military camp at Finner be avoided, both of which conditions subsequently received scant attention from the British.

The 'nod and a wink' policy of 'neutral Ireland ' quickly extended to more than just a shortcut to the Atlantic ! As the bombs rained down on Belfast on the night of 15-16 April 1941 a panic-stricken call from the Six County Security Minister, John Mc Dermott, brought a humanitarian dash by thirteen units of the Dublin Fire Brigade to the rescue of the devastated city.

Other concessions followed. The establishment in June 1941 of an armed air/sea rescue trawler, the 'Robert Hastie', manned by eleven British personnel, at Killybegs fishing port was shrouded in secrecy. Its purpose was to provide assistance to shipping casualties and to supply planes that had run out of fuel. The need for such a vessel was clearly illustrated the previous April when Pilot Officer Denis Briggs, returning from a routine U-boat patrol, was forced to ditch his Saro Lerwick sea-plane in the sea off Tullan Strand, Co. Donegal when he ran short of fuel. Watching the descent of the stricken plane Irish army observation posts shortly afterwards beheld the unusual sight of an airplane being towed to Bundoran by a passing fishing boat and immediately reported the incident to HQ.

This was a new dilemma for all involved. Local units of the Army, unaware of decisions made at higher levels, proceeded on the assumption that the crew would be interned for the duration of the war in neutral Ireland and the plane impounded. Following some hasty consultation and diplomatic manoeuvring a camouflaged air force lorry arrived from across the border in Castle Archdale with eighty gallons of aviation fuel. The plane was made ready and took off with its crew for their home base on Lough Erne."

"On the evening of December 5 th 1942 people from all over North Sligo looked up into a lowering winter sky, watching fearfully as a huge Flying Fortress circled noisily overhead looking for a safe place to land. 'The Devil Himself' created a sensation when it dropped safely out of the sky on to Mullaghmore beach. The crew of American officers and airmen were feted in accommodation at the Beach Hotel, Mullaghmore and at Finner camp for 17 days while a replacement engine was supplied from Northern Ireland and fitted to the plane."

It is wrong to refer to Sean T. O'Kelly as "virilantly anti-British". He wasn't. He proposed for example paying a courtesy call of King George in Buckingham Palace nearly half a century before President Robinson broke the mould by doing so. (Changes in the presidential timetable meant that Sean T's planned stop off in London had to be cancelled, so his planned meeting with the King couldn't take place. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 03:29, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Éamon de Valera/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Article incorrectly rated How did this article get rated as A class without any rationale or discussion here. The article lacks citations and is somewhat verbose. I have reverted it to B class. 194.46.237.210 08:11, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 23:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 20:26, 2 May 2016 (UTC)