Talk:Ælfgifu of Northampton

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Untitled

This really needs to be split into two pages, one for the wife of Ethelred and one for the mistress of Canute, since they were different and each the mother of an English King. http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/adversaries/bios/aethelredunred.html suggests the first was the daughter of the Earl of Northumbria. --Henrygb 23:29, 6 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Name Meaning

I tried editing this once, but I'll try here too. First, though, I agree that there should be a separate page or entry for the principle women named Aelfgifu: Edwi's "wife", Edmund's wife, Aelfgifu of Northhampton, and Emma/Aelfgifu, wife of Aethelred and Cnute.

Second, the name Aelfgifu does NOT NOT NOT mean "noble gift." It is a compound of "aelf", elf, and gifu, "gift", Elf Gift, not to be confused with another popular name of the period, Aethelgifu, which would be "noble gift."

Emma of Normandy has a page. But the distinction I see is between the 1st wife of Aethelred and the mistress of Canute. --Henrygb 22:32, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Henrygb: Thanks, I knew that. I was just making a point that all these women with the same name in the late tenth and early eleventh century should have separate pages devoted to them, most of them are important in one way or another. Particularly the two you mention: Aelfgifu of Northampton, Cnut's first wife, and Emma Aelfgifu, 2nd wife of Aethelred, 2nd wife of Cnut. Toss into that mixture the problem of Aethelred's first wife, also named Aelfgifu, and things begin to get very confusing.

I see that the article has been amended somewhat so that the meaning of the name is now given as "noble gift" or "gift of the Elves", so at least the correct meaning has at last been added. HOWEVER, it still does not make the definition of "noble gift" in any way, shape, or form accurate. Old English "aelf" simply does not mean "noble" in ANY context in the Old English corpus or Middle English for that matter.

Here is the entry in the Dictionary of Old English from Toronto: Att. sp.: ælf || ælfe; ælue || ylfe (nom.pl.) || ylfa. With Lat. inflection: aelfae

Spellings in æ, in one MS (Royal 12.D.xvii) dated s.x med. and presumed to have been written at Winchester, were perhaps either influenced by WS personal names or borrowed from Anglian; expected lWS form is *ylf.

7 occ. (mainly in medical recipes and charms)

1. elf

1.a. as the supposed agency in illness or disease

1.a.i. ylfa gescot `elf-shot', a medical condition of unspecified nature (apparently understood as a supernatural assault leading to illness or disease); cf. OED2 elf-shot, EDD elf-shot s.v. elf sense 1.8.c, DOST elf schot s.v. elf sense 2; cf. G Hexenschuss

2.a. as an element in personal names, e.g. Ælfflæd, Ælfgar, Ælfgifu, Ælfheah, Ælfhelm, Ælfhere, Ælfmæs, Ælfnoþ, Ælfred, Ælfric, Ælfsige, Ælfstan, Ælfweald, Ælfweard

2.b. as a place-name element, e.g. Ælfestun, Beorælfestun

See also: ælf-ādl, -cynn, -scȳne, -siden, -sogeþa, -þone; ælfen, ælfig, ælfisc; dūn-, land-ælf

also take a look at http://www.etymonline.com and the Bosworth and TOller Old English Dictionary online at: http://penguin.pearson.swarthmore.edu/~scrist1/scanned_books/html/oe_bosworthtoller/b0014.html for the aelf entry and compound words. Analogy may certainly be made for example that aelfhelm, aelfric, aelfscinu, or aelfadl (elf helm, elf strength, power, rule, elf shining, or elf illness).

One could say that in compounds or in names where the "aelf-" seems to be a positive attribute that this postive should or could be expressed by "noble", but this is something of a stretch and compromise position. I have to challenge the editors or the author of the article to provide sources for the claim that the name means or signifies something "noble."

Does it matter at this point in the 11th century what her name actually means? I mean, my name means "man of red earth" or whatever in Hebrew but that's not really relevant now. Did they really think she was a gift from the elves? Adam Bishop 07:09, 11 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It matters if the author of the article on Aelfgifu of Northhampton is going to say "The name Aelfgifu means 'noble gift'....it is incorrect information in the article that I am seeking to correct, to no avail. If the line is deleted, I have no problem, and would agree with the thrust of your comment. It is unlikely that in the 10th century they thought anymore of what their names "meant", they were traditional, family names by that point. But hopefully someday someone will correct the incorrect statement in the article.

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Maybe we need to look at the difference between original meaning and aquired meaning. Aelfgifu (alfgifu, elfgifu) mean "elf gift", "gift of the elves" and "gift from the elves" by origin and etymology. However, if you go to algifu/elgifu or algiva/elgiva the al- or el- is short for both the aelf and aethel elements. Thus, because aelfgifu and aethelgifu were often confused with each other - in part because the later forms could refer to either name. And especially when kings had the "divine right to rule" by being the representative of god on earth (mixing the concept of aethel/noblily with divinity) and aelf also had the meaning of "powerful supernatural being" - which may have associated itself with the noblity.

Though you are technically correct, if there is a historical confusion, it should be noted. I hate those squigglies! 24.77.37.48 (talk) 23:16, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling of female names

The page devoted to Aelgifu contains references on it to Ael-F-gifu. In other versions there appears to be Elgifu and Elfgifu. Is the 'f' optional? I know name spellings are hard to pin down from this period but it would seem to alter the meaning of the name if the 'f' is missed. Would some scholar enlighten me, please? Tom Kirby 12:04, 10 October 2005 (UTC) Tom Kirby[reply]

As far as I know, Elgifu does not occur in the Anglo-Saxon period, but is a much later shortening of the name in early modern English. In late West Saxon a number of inital ae words go forward in the mouth and become e-, aelf to elf, Aelfgifu to Elfgifu. I'm going off memory here and will try to post a correction if when I have a chance to check it is different.

Illustration does not belong here

The image known as Stowe 944, does not depict Ælfgifu of Northampton. Instead, it depicts Emma of Normandy, who was also known as "Ælfgifu"; see Cross and Culture in Anglo-Norman England: Theology, Imagery, Devotion by John Munns (https://books.google.com/books?id=TicbDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=winchester+cross+presented+to+%22new+minster%22&source=bl&ots=5SZBa3In-P&sig=kuRvqi9b08MJowxmBzsqPXbitxU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8qcCytJ3VAhVCLSYKHchzBioQ6AEIVTAJ#v=onepage&q=winchester%20cross%20presented%20to%20%22new%20minster%22&f=false)

The British Library's catalogue (http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/illmanus/stowmanucoll/c/011sto000000944u00006000.html) indicates that the Liber Vitae of New Minster (Winchester) begins with this image, dating it to 1031, when Ælfgifu of Northampton would have been overseas.

I intend to move this illustration to the "Emma of Normandy" article (and of course, remove it from this page) during or after October 2017, unless there is a strong objection with proof that proves BL and Munns are wrong.

--LibertyHiller (talk) 17:45, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, good eye. The first plate of Timothy Bolton's 2017 Cnut the Great identifies the woman as Emma. So no objection from me.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 00:36, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]