Portal talk:Portugal/Quotes

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Magellan quote

“The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.” Ferdinand Magellan

The quote was incorrectly attributed to Magellan by Robert Green Ingersoll in his essay “Individuality.” This may be accessed at [1] It’s in the fourth paragraph of his essay:

It is a blessed thing that in every age some one has had individuality enough and courage enough to stand by his own convictions, -- some one who had the grandeur to say his say. I believe it was Magellan who said, "The church says the earth is flat; but I have seen its shadow on the moon, and I have more confidence even in a shadow than in the church." On the prow of his ship were disobedience, defiance, scorn, and success.

This, apparently, was first pointed out by Dr. Tom Gorski in his web-site “Knowing What Ain’t So” at [2]. Dr. Gorski is one of four founders of the The North Texas Church of Freethought.Vic (talk) 09:09, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Web-sites with Ingersoll's quote

This quote which Ingersoll attributed to Magellan without citing his source or authority is all over the web. Here are just a few of the over 211 sites where this quote appears:

1. [3] 2. [4] 3. [5] 4. [6] 5. [7] Selling T-shirt with Magellan quote 6. [8] 7. [9] 8. [10] 9. [11] 10.[12] 11.[13]

Many of the owners or web-masters of these sites are now aware of the true provenance of the quote. A number have gracefully accepted Ingersoll's authorship and have consequently removed Magellan's name and replaced it with Ingersoll's. Others insist on Magellan's authorship leaving the issue at that. The onus of proving the authenticity of the quote being Magellan's is squarely on those who assert its truthfulness. This can be easily proven or disproven by going to primary sources published at the time Ingersoll surmised Magellan said those words.

At the time Ingersoll wrote his essay "Individuality" the ff. primary sources were already published:

1. Antonio Pigafetta, Primo viaggio intorno al globo terracquio, ossia ragguaglio della navigazione...fatta dal cavaliere Antonio Pigafetta...orapublicato per la prima volta, tratto da un codice MS. Della biblioteca Ambrosiana di Milano e corredato di note da Carlo Amoretti . 1800. The French translation also by Amoretti was published the ff. year.

2. The Genoese Pilot. Navegacam e vyagem que fez Fernando de Magalhaes de Seuilha pera Maluco no anno de 1519 annos. 1826.

3. Francisco Albo, Diario o derrotero del viage de Magallanes desde el cabo de San Agustin en el Brasil, hasta el regreso a Espana de la nao Victoria. 1837.

The Last Will and Testament of Magellan came out only in its English translation in the biography by F.H.H. Guillemard in 1890. So this could not have been the authority of Ingersoll. And in any case there is nothing there that would suggests the quote Ingersoll conjures.

The other primary accounts came later than 1873, e.g., Gines de Mafra's account Libro que trata del descubrimiento y principio del Estrecho que se llama de Magallanes was published 1920. Martin de Ayamonte's brief account based on an interrogation by Portuguese authorities at Malacca came out only in 1933 in a book edited by Antonio Baiao in Arquivo Historico de Portugal, vol. I, fasc. 5, 6.

The accounts by Pigafetta, Albo and the Genoese Pilot may be accessed in the book by Lord Stanley of Alderley, editor and translator, The First Voyage Around the World by Magellan, Hakluyt Society, 1874. This has been reprinted lately, I think only this year, 2007, and is readily available at Amazon.com .

I have read the primary sources, incldg. those published after 1873, there is nothing that's in some way, form, or substance, shape akin to Ingersoll's quote.

Is it possible there is a source somewhere that somehow will validate Ingersoll? In logic, that's called the fallacy of the possible proof. --Vic (talk) 03:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Ldheinz (talk) 17:47, 21 December 2013 (UTC) This article incorrectly assumes that the quote of Magellan has been proven to be incorrect. The facts presented only prove that Ingersoll did not provide a source for the quote. The correct conclusion is that the validity of the quotation is unknown. The article is also vague with regards to "primary sources". Are these primary sources of the quote or primary sources of Magellan as author? Please note that all of the primary sources postdate Magellan. Also, the Gorski reference is a broken link.

The context of the quote provides little opportunity for it to be authentic. The quote would be highly anachronistic for Magellan's time, where belief in a round world was common knowledge, and the church did not teach a flat earth. The attitude reflected in the quote however, perfectly fits the portrayal of pre-Renaissance Europe in the Myth of the Flat Earth which, perhaps not coincidentally, was at its height in Ingersoll's day. Compare the supposed Magellan quote to an actual documented quote from the writings of another famous explorer who lived before and during Magellan's lifetime: "I have always read that the world, comprising the land and the water, was spherical, as is testified by the investigations of Ptolemy and others, who have proved it by the eclipses of the moon, and other observations made from east to west, as well as by the elevation of the pole from north to south..." Letter to Ferdinand and Isabella describing Columbus' third voyage to America. English translation from R. H. Major http://books.google.com/books?id=9A8XS-kK-gkC&pg=PA105&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q=I%20have%20always%20read&f=false See also discussion on https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Ferdinand_Magellan Rrrrred (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2014 (UTC)