Module talk:Nagorno-Karabakh conflict detailed map

The map is little bit wrong

The map is little bit wrong, can anyone change the map? It must shove 0.3cm to left and 0.3 cm to down. Beshogur (talk) 16:10, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

@Beshogur: Is the map still wrong, or has it been fixed? Tradedia^talk 03:45, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

It's ok. Beshogur (talk) 13:47, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Sources for Azeri gains

@Solarsuntzu: Hi! All of the sources that have been used for the recent edits are from pro-Azeri sources. International media has so far not gone further than describing the claims as claims made by Azerbaijan and not verified independently. There should be a similar basis for edits as is standard for edits on pages like the Syrian Civil War map - to require sources not potentially biased with regard to the nature of the edit. Therefore, pro-Azeri edits has to use neutral or pro-Armenian sources and vice versa. AntonSamuel (talk) 00:44, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

@AntonSamuel: I am wary of propaganda myself, and have been watching the conflict carefully, but as far as I can see the Azeris have backed up their claims with video evidence. I think it's fair to say they control the areas they say they do. I'd post more neutral sources if I could, but as you said outside media hasn't said anything either way on this, probably because this war isn't getting as much worldwide attention as say, Syria, is. But as for video evidence https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-bhm7Xxh74 Armenian military equipment seized by Azeri forces as they advance on Jabrayil https://twitter.com/The_DavidBudd/status/1312754117408813057 Jabrayil under Azeri control https://twitter.com/aldin_ww/status/1312500249907220481?s=21 Mataghis under azeri control

Aldin is actually a pretty decent source, he usually gives a fair take on both sides of a conflict. Although he is just a guy on twitter and not a major media organization. It's just frustrating because there's comparatively little outside media coverage of this war compared to places like Syria. I hope to fill in the map more though, I added a bunch of other towns in Artsakh (who's de facto control status isn't disputed currently) and I plan on adding more towns and cities in Armenia and Azerbaijan proper as well later Solarsuntzu (talk) 01:59, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

@Solarsuntzu: I have seen these videos and I would argue that they do not provide sufficient ground for making claims regarding the capture of the areas. Pro-Armenian sources claim the opposite and have posted videos also claimed to be from these areas. You can find them on liveuamap and here: [1] [2]. The pro-Azeri claims may prove to be correct, but as long as they have not been independently verified, the claims cannot be considered to be sufficient for the basic requirements of Wikipedia - to utilize neutral and reliable sources. I have also brought up this issue on the talk page for the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict page with regard to its map: [3] AntonSamuel (talk) 02:14, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Status of Fizuli?

I noticed that Fizuli on the map was marked as a ruined ghost town, but the article for the city shows that it has a population of over 26k as of 2010. That's why I changed it to the standard city icon, but it got reverted back to the ruins, so I have to ask, what's the status of Fizuli? Is it currently a ghost town, or not? What should it be marked as? The article for it says it has a population of 26k Solarsuntzu (talk) 19:27, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

@Solarsuntzu: Yes, a majority of the settlements previously populated by Azeris in the Armenian-controlled territories surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh are ghost towns, you can see their ruined nature yourself on the satellite mode of Google Maps. However, some settlements in the area are populated such as Lachin and Kalbajar. A lot of the population statistics for the NK/Artsakh wiki pages are unfortunately outdated, unclear or seeemingly based on demographics of non-resident Azeri refugees/descendants of refugees from the settlements. 19:47, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Murovdag

As Azerbaijan claim, Murovdag is under Azerbaijani control. I want to change it in the map, but unfortunately, I don't know how to. In my opinion, it's possible to display it with half green and half red. --Ophir botzer (talk) 18:31, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

@Ophir botzer: Hi! There's a need to use neutral and reliable sources for edits, and as far as I have seen Azeri control of Murovdag has not been confirmed by independent sources. Some other Azerbaijani claims (Talish, Jabrayil) however have been confirmed through geolocation and other means on https://caucasus.liveuamap.com/ AntonSamuel (talk) 18:34, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

After some research I did, I found out that liveuamap claim Murovdag is under Azerbaijani control, So in my opinion, we should put Murovdag in green.--Ophir botzer (talk) 11:55, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

@Ophir botzer: The claim has not been confirmed by Liveuamap (https://caucasus.liveuamap.com/). Confirmed areas are in solid blue on the map, not dotted. AntonSamuel (talk) 14:10, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

ok, I support the half idea for now --Ophir botzer (talk) 17:50, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Neighbouring Countries

This dynamic map is excellent! However, I recommend adding the neighbouring country names into the baseline template. Farawayman (talk) 12:08, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

There are too many missing.

Hundreds of settlements in the Nagorno-Karabakh region are missing. There are too many roads, cities, villages. Also, thousands of cities and villages of Armenia and Azerbaijan are missing. We need detailed work like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Syrian_Civil_War_map#/media/File:Syrian_Civil_War_map.svg --45.135.206.249 (talk) 00:16, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Shosh/Shushakend

@CuriousGolden: Have you seen any recent news sources stating that Shosh/Shushakend is under joint Azerbaijani/Russian control? I've seen Armenian news reports about Armenian refugees arriving in Shosh and the school in the village being planned for renovation by Artsakh authorities as one of the ones still being under Armenian control, as well as an Armenian-based photographer taking photos from the town towards Shushi/Shusha. AntonSamuel (talk) 18:30, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

As far as I know, those news aren't new as I remember discussing them in Talk:Şuşakənd#Control a few weeks ago. There's still no solid proof of who's controlling Shushakend and its control is definitely a lot more contested than Chaylaggala, which has been confirmed to be under Azeri control by several WP:RS. Therefore, I find it appropriate to change the marker to a disputed one. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 18:36, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: If you think it's that level of disputed - fine, but then I would argue that because of the amount of reports of an Armenian presence still being more than what have been provided about Azerbaijani control from the time the Armenian reports came in until now (from what I've seen), then Shosh should at least be marked as under full Russian peacekeeper control instead if we take everthing in consideration. Regarding reliable sources about Khtsaberd, I saw one BBC Azerbaijan report with the title claiming that Azerbaijan was handed the Khtsaberd/Hin Tagher pocket, while the report only contained references to the Russian MoD map, not from reports from the ground, but maybe I've missed a couple of other reports? AntonSamuel (talk) 18:43, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Not sure what levels of disputed exist, but if Chaylaggala is marked as disputed, then Shushakend should've been marked ages ago. And we've already discussed Shushakend's disputed status in Talk:Şuşakənd#Control, including an extensive Kommersant report, other than the BBC one. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:26, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: Aren't you mixing up the two villages now? I cannot see any BBC or Kommersant report on Shosh - those were of Khtsaberd right? On the Shosh talk page I can't see any further sources added since I added the one of Armenian-based Neil Hauer reporting from Shosh, which you and SolaVirum argued weren't neutral enough, despite his high journalistic standing and work for several news outlets considered WP:RS. AntonSamuel (talk) 19:33, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Yep, sorry, I meant Chaylaggala, not Shushakend. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:36, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: All right, so can we at least agree on keeping the Shosh/Shushakend dot blue for now until more clear sources such as visual evidence from the village or reports from reliable sources become available in order to not potentially mislead the readers? AntonSamuel (talk) 19:43, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

What I meant in my last comment was that control of Chaylaggala is clearer than control of Shushakend currently because of the sources I was talking about. So if we're keeping Chaylaggala as disputed, then Shushakend should also stay that way. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:48, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: Yes, control regarding the town may be disputed, but from the sources presented so far on the Shosh talk page, I would argue that it's more likely that Shosh is under joint Artsakh/Russian control than any indication that it would be under Azerbaijani/Russian joint control. But if we don't agree on that - then can we at least, as a middle ground, in order to not potentially mislead the readers, paint the dot totally blue? Then we aren't reporting anything potentially directly false - the presence of Russian peacekeepers (at least in a base very near the town) isn't disputed. AntonSamuel (talk) 19:53, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I just don't understand how you think Chaylaggala's control status is disputed enough, while Shushakend's isn't when we have 2 WP:RS sources for Chaylaggala and zero for Shushakend. We either mark them both as disputed or remove them both from disputed tag to not misguide our viewers. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:58, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: It doesn't like seem you understand my point - you've changed the icon to half Russian half Azerbaijani control - this portrays the situation for Shosh/Shushakend such as that it would be similar to the Vang/Dadivank village - Azerbaijani control with a Russian peacekeeper presence. If we are to mark it as disputed, I would argue that it would be appropriate to change it to half Russian half Armenian control. But since you don't seem to share the same view of the likely situation on the ground from the sources provided so far - I offered to show it as under full Russian control instead - as this wouldn't state anything about either an Armenian or an Azerbaijani presence. However, if you still think that is incorrect/imprecise - we can pick another color to paint Shosh/Shushakend to display a "disputed"/"control unknown" status if you think that would be better.

Regarding Khtsaberd/Çaylaqqala: I think Khtsaberd's status is more unclear, since I haven't seen a source (including the one's from BBC and Kommersant) that were stating that "Russian troops have withdrawn from Khtsaberd" "Khtsaberd is now under full Azerbaijani control" by basing it on reports from the ground, they've only used the Russian MoD map, and I haven't seen any recent videos of/from Azerbaijani troops in the village. Or have there been such reports/videos? AntonSamuel (talk) 20:10, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Not sure how showing it as Russian control solves the problem. We can show it as half-Azeri, half-Armenian to show a disputed control. And as you said, even though BBC and Kommersant haven't independently confirmed it, these highly WP:RS sources still stated that it is or highly likely under Azeri control. We haven't such a thing about Shushakend, which makes its status more disputed than Chaylaggala's. And no, AzMOD doesn't rush to show footages from disputed villages as the purpose of the footages isn't to confirm control, but to show state of the villages. Which is why most videos are from Azeri villages/towns outside Nagorno-Karabakh. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:23, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: While that would be better than the current situation, it would still be a bit problematic since it would convey that we have reports that Shosh would be divided between Azerbaijani and Armenian control, like Taghavard is. I've explained quite thoroghly now why it would be more correct to show full Russian control. However, as I've stated, we can choose another color for "disputed" if you like. These three options would be the options I would consider adequate from what we know so far (or for option number two - what is likely): 1) Full Russian control 2) Half Russian half Armenian/Artsakh control or 3) Disputed/Unknown control.

I've changed it to half Russian half disputed (yellow) control for now.

Tagging some of the recent experienced editors of the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war article: @EkoGraf:, @AyodeleA2:, @Eurofan88:, @Jr8825:, @Pauli133:, @Wakari07:

What do you guys think is likely with regard to control of Shosh/Shushakend? What status would you guys think would be appropriate to display on the map from the sources available so far?

AntonSamuel (talk) 20:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@AntonSamuel: We should then create a new colour that shows disputed status without indicating who's controlling it. Anything else would be us assuming something without proof, which would be WP:OR. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 07:03, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Which is what I've suggested, and what I've done ( Control unclear). AntonSamuel (talk) 10:22, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Cool. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 10:24, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Two Armenian videos of Shosh/Shushakend have emerged online, and further reports about the village being under Armenian/Russian peacekeeper control have emerged as well:

• An Armenian filmmaker made an episode about Shosh as part of a "Desire to Live" documentary series: [4]

• A recent video tour around Shosh, with Russian peacekeepers visible, filmed by an Armenian Facebook user: [5]

• Artsakh Rescue Service reporting about upcoming clearing of villages, including Shosh from munitions: [6] [7]

• Russian MoD map showing Shosh within the peacekeeping mission: [8]

• IWN has also shown Shosh as within the peacekeeping mission on December 18th: [9]

• An Armenian news outlet have also reported on Russian medics helping children in Shosh: [10]

AntonSamuel (talk) 15:08, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Labels

@AntonSamuel: Hey, I feel like the labels on the map are a bit too clumsy and all over. I was thinking we should turn off labels of most things except large cities/towns and important objects so the map looks a bit clearer. What do you think?

I've tried to clean up the map a bit by hiding some of the labels, keeping the labels of the larger and frontier settlements and those of localities mentioned in the media recently. However, I'll look into making the map a bit less cluttered. AntonSamuel (talk) 14:20, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

@AntonSamuel: I think we should keep only the biggest cities/towns in very clustered areas (inside NK). For example, I would hide the labels like this:

• Hide labels for all villages in Martakert District except large ones like Martakert, Vank and Haterk
• Hide labels for all villages in Askeran District except Askeran and Khojaly
• Hide labels for all villages in Hadrut District except Hadrut, Khtsaberd, Dolanlar and maybe Taghaverd.
• Hide labels for all villages in Martuni District, except Martuni itself, Karakend and Chartar.

— CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:28, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

I've hid some of the labels now in the more cluttered areas. AntonSamuel (talk) 15:06, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Pointers

@AntonSamuel: Hi, can I know what determines the size of pointers so I don't make mistakes in my future edits? — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:17, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: Sure, you can see instructions for label and icon sizes in the first part of the page when editing the code of the module. AntonSamuel (talk) 15:21, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Correct linking

@EljanM: Thanks for your additions. But please make sure to use the actual article name in the |link= parameter instead of the transliterated name or it won't work. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:46, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I didn’t know. Thank you for your warning. EljanM (TALK) 16:43, 17 January 2021

the map.

the map is very outdated given that Azerbaijan controls all of it now. Death Editor 2 (talk) 18:22, 28 October 2023 (UTC)