Talk:Pir Panjal Pass

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Drafting

Thanks for your suggestions. I made some major changes in Draft:Peer Ki Gali. Farooqahmadbhat (talk)

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Moved

Farooqahmadbhat created this page under the title "Peer Ki Gali". I have moved it to Pir Panjal Pass as per WP:COMMONNAME. The most often used name in scholarly sources is indeed "Pir Panjal Pass". The sources using "Peer Ki Gali" are far fewer. However, plain web search brings up a lot more hits for "Peer Ki Gali", suggesting that the native name is increasingly current in news reports and tourist web sites.

Opinions welcome. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:48, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging Adamgerber80, DiplomatTesterMan. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:35, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Kautilya3: This is an interesting point. I was wondering how to reply, I think taking reference to WP:NCPLACE helps. (Note, as the page says - "These are advice, intended to guide, not force, consensus...")

"Use modern English names for titles and in articles. Historical names or names in other languages can be used in the lead if they are frequently used and important enough to be valuable to readers, and should be used in articles with caution."
"Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Local official names should be listed before other alternate names if they differ from a widely accepted English name."

Peer Ki Gali is being used quite a bit as you pointed out. A quick skim through search results for different words suggests to me that Peer Ki Gali is being used more than the English replacement. But WP:COMMONNAME for taking reference to Banihal pass, Sinthan pass, Rohtang Pass makes sense when using Pir Panjal Pass. BUT, the page name is Sinthan top and not Sinthan pass. Lonely Planet uses Rohtang La in one article and Rohtang Pass in other places... etc etc

Using GOOGLE TRENDS to get a quick look at the comparison between the terms - LINK I would say Pir Ki Gali has a lot going for it. If someone can do a better comparison that would be great!

On the other hand, if this was a judgement call, I would stay with the current name.(Just to confuse myself more :D :D) DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 13:51, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a little tricky one. Yes 'Peer Ki Gali' has more hits but I would stick with 'Pir Panjal Pass'. My simple reasoning being that this is an English Wikipedia and the word Pass which is a geographical feature has more relevance here. The word 'Gali' which is vernacular equivalent of "small passage" and possibly being used here to substitute "pass" can thus be replaced. I would vote for it to remain "Pass" since this would have result in better understanding with readers who are not primarily from the Sub-continent. Adamgerber80 (talk) 17:48, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I came around to favour Peer ki Gali shortly before DeiplomatTesterMan posted here. My reasons were that:

"Pir Panjal Pass" is clearly in the past. The locals are never going to call it by that name any more. The J&K Government and the Indian newspapers are spreading the new name, which is increasingly in the news because of the rehabilitation of the Mughal Road.
Peer ki Gali represents the dual sense, as a geographical feature as well as tourist/pilgrimage spot.
In the modern context, where "Pir Panjal" by itself means the Pir Panjal range, calling a pass by the same name seems odd. (I guess that is why "Pir Panjal Pass" is falling out of use.)

DTM's Google trends plots convinced me of these things further. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:42, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

✔️@Adamgerber80: When @Kautilya3: sir moved "Peer Ki Gali" to "Pir panjal Pass" i took the web including offline books and found his insights very clear... Thanks for your valuable help.... Farooqahmadbhat (talk) 17:15, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I will move it back to Peer Ki Gali as it is the current name. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:17, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Kautilya3: Sir, Pir Panjal Pass is the correct name of Peer Ki Gali as Peer Ki gali is used only by the local people while some people call it Pir Panjal Pass. I think, Pir Panjal Pass should be its original name. Farooqahmadbhat (talk) 17:34, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, it looks like you have changed your mind. Perhaps you should file a WP:Requested move so that we don't have to keep going back and forth. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:36, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's not upto me to make the final decision about "Page Move". You can recheck my opinion marked with a tick ✔️ ... In fact, You misunderstood me... probably my fault.... I'm going to repeat what i said in my previous comment... @Adamgerber80 When @Kautilya3: moved "Peer Ki Gali" to "Pir panjal Pass" i took the web including offline books and found his insights very clear...(It means, you performed a good action), i think..... Farooqahmadbhat (talk) 20:32, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox Changed

Kautilya3 moved Peer Ki Gali to Pir Panjal Pass in accordance with WP:COMMONNAME, therefore, i found more relevant infobox for the said article and i replaced Template:Infobox settlement by Template:Infobox mountain pass as infobox settlement may not be appropriate for a mountain pass.(Farooqahmadbhat (talk) 09:31, 26 November 2018 (UTC))[reply]

The name issue is still being discussed, as you can see above. However, changing the infobox to mountain pass is quite welcome. It is clearly not a "settlement". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:10, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That, having said, there is no need to get rid of the other infobox parameters. Please note also that geocoordinates are never accurate with just two decimal places. You need at least four decimal digits to get close. It is best to use all the accuracy that is available from the mapping web sites.

Once we are sure what the shrine is called, we can also use it as the image in the infobox. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:20, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Aliabad Sarai

@Farooqahmadbhat: I think I have located what looks like the Aliabad Sarai at 33°38′30″N 74°35′01″E / 33.641732°N 74.583560°E / 33.641732; 74.583560, shown on Google Satellite here. Can you double check? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:53, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Kautilya3: Sir, This is actually Aliabad Sarai that modern people used for their cattles before the construction of Mughal Road. Here is the video about how people (Mostly Gujjar) destroyed this place.(Farooqahmadbhat (talk) 14:25, 26 November 2018 (UTC))[reply]

Infobox image

My Lord, I am not sure why you replaced the image in the infobox. It looks any old bunch of mountains and doesn't show the pass as such. How about the one on the right?

I am also wondering if we should rename the article back to Pir Panjal Pass. I sort of left this hanging the last time we discussed it. But it appears that Peer Ki Gali is just the name of the spot on the entrance to the pass and doesn't cover the entire pass. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:30, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have self reverted, and I do agree with you about changing the article's name.ML⁹¹¹ 15:32, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]