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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: No consensus. There's also a suggestion that this isn't really a coherent topic, so this may merit a merge or AFD too, although that's outside the scope of this discussion. — Amakuru (talk) 14:04, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It seems fine to me, I'm just wondering if it will still include all the cases in which the old institution 'survived' and remained in place (example, University of Bologna after the University of Padua was established) or exclusively those cases where the old university ceased to exist with more than one replacing it (example: Victoria University (United Kingdom))? I do prefer the first option which would include institutions with surviving parent institutions. MirkoS18 (talk)
Comment Not sure what this article is about or why it exists. But many of these are not "split up" universities. It was created only recently (Aug 2021). Not sure what the intention or criterion of the original author was. Walrasiad (talk) 09:19, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Thank yu for your contribution. The intention or criterion was to list the cases in which separation of one existing higher education institution led to creation of multiple new academic institutions. You are absolutely right that some of the old schools managed to remain in place with more or less troubles (as clearly described in the introduction). They would continue to work slightly or significantly changed without separated new entity. Decision to include those (somewhat different) cases was motivated by the fact that sometimes it is not clear which institution is the old one as multiple will claim it (see Bosnian case of the University of Mostar and University Džemal Bijedić of Mostar, both of which claim to be established in 1977/not an unique situation). So, while as a model we may distinguish it easily (the old institution legally survived or not), it is as always a bit more complicated in practice. In a wider sense, this list is useful resource for anyone interested in academic institutional conflicts and/or management (in general, and not only in a specific cases), non-state level examples of societal or institutional separatism, politics of or Politicization of science and the global history of the higher education.--MirkoS18 (talk) 11:42, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's not what confuses me. When I hear the term "split up university", I think of a university with multiple campuses, e.g. "University of California" with campuses in Berkeley, Los Angeles, San Bernardino, etc., or "University of London" with Birkbeck, UCL, KCL, etc. In which case there would be a lot on this list.
But that's not what you're talking about. Now you seem to be talking about university creation, not existence. In any case, "split up universities" is a poor term. You want a "List of universities created by splitting" (or something like that).
While "creation" seems to be what you're going for, I'm not sure if "splitting" is the right verb, and mixes many cases.
The continued existence of the former is not necessarily required. And would be ambiguous in many cases as it was not a 'split' but a mass evacuation. Many Medieval universities (e.g. Oxford, Cambridge, Padua, Angers, Orleans, Siena, Leipzig, etc.) were created by what is called "defection" or "migration" en masse by the student body. Nobody stayed behind, so it is not really a split, it is a wholesale boycott of a town by (mainly foreign) students to force the town authorities to negotiate better terms for foreign residents, while they continue meeting & holding classes somewhere else. Sometimes it works and the town comes to terms and the student body returns (so old university revives and the new university disappears), sometimes only part of the student body returns (wherein a 'split' emerges, I guess), or sometimes it takes another generation or two for the town to recover students again (not the same body), sometimes it never revives.
But that is a rather unique process. And wholly from the bottom up. It does not include movement of faculty or teachers, and does not include state authorities creating a new institution (a modern development). Which makes it tricky to group them together in one list, e.g. if a faculty group resigns and makes a new institution, it does not imply any part of the student body goes with them. That's just a new institution, not a migration (e.g. New School is not a 'split' from Columbia). Faculty movements should probably be disregarded as all universities poach teachers from each other, and new universities necessarily need to (e.g. Chicago raided Cornell faculty to set itself up). But even student bodies it is not always clear if they should be grouped together. What about migrations by government diktat? (e.g. Ingolstadt moving to Munich?). Or defections by government diktat (e.g. Pavia, by the Duke of Milan forbidding native Lombard students to go to elsewhere). Or defection by only part of the body? (e.g. Lutheran students leaving Marburg for Giessen?) Or creation of a rival institution in the same town or area to compete and poach students? (e.g. many Jesuit universities). What is the criteria for "splitting"? Walrasiad (talk) 15:55, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your detailed feedback and some really useful points for reflection. I believe it can help me to work further on this topic and I hope it will be useful for other editors. Now, you are right, I certainly am not focused on organizational aspects of decentralized large schools. The core moments for me would in fact be “institutional or societal conflict which culminated in split up of universities” (this would really be some criteria of break up here, and the list should be very inclusive with the definition of conflict, actors of breakup and the types of new institutions). Those are really the cases of my central interest here. Now, since at first it may seem a bit OR, it is very important that I managed to discover some relevant and reliable sources on the topic (I am certain other editors will be able to find or recall many more-the miracle of collaborative and never ending work on Wikipedia). Now, complexity and even messiness which you so convincingly describe is not something that discourage me (although it may be the reason why we didn’t have this list until recently), but in fact something that motivates me even more. I would maybe disagree with you on that part as I think that it is very much useful to have all those cases together. They provide an accessible overview and insight into how conflict in higher education settings may just as easily lead to separation as it may in some other context. So, as you can see, what I am going for is really conflict management (or lack of it) in higher education leading to break up of institutions.--MirkoS18 (talk) 16:49, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
