Category talk:Sexual orientation change efforts

New Category

OK, now there's a new category, Changing Sexuality. This may be no bad thing, but why does this category exist as well as (rather than instead of) Conversion therapy? I'd thought that Conversion therapy was going to be renamed Changing Sexuality. What happened? Skoojal (talk) 07:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I came here wondering the same thing...I think the two phrasings overlap 100%, depending on how strictly "conversion therapy" is defined. I'll go ask him on his talk page. --zenohockey (talk) 17:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh...just saw Category talk:Conversion therapy#Criteria and name. I'll take it there. --zenohockey (talk) 17:41, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I got sidetracked. I've populated the new category but then didn't feel bold enough to also add ex-gay articles as well. I think we can now depopulate the other cat and redirect the talkpage here. -- Banjeboi 20:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

David Bowie

Should David Bowie go in here? He seems to change his sexuality a lot...first he was bisexual, then it was the "biggest mistake (he) ever made", then he was a "closet heterosexual", and now he is "trisexual". Stonemason89 (talk) 17:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I wouldn't set much store by what is said by anyone with product to sell. But it does highlight one problem with this category in that is it about (a) persons who have claimed to have been of different sexualities from time to time or (b) some therapeutic or redirective method, such as NLP, claimed to alter sexualities? On a cursory look it ain't clear to me. --Rodhullandemu 01:03, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

What constitutes a change in sexuality

For the purpose of this category? If someone merely changes the label they apply to themselves, while acknowledging that there has been no change in their actual sexual orientation, i.e. in the kind of people to whom they are attracted, do they really belong here? I ask because someone just added this cat to David Benkof, who used to call himself gay and now prefers the term bisexual, but as far as I can tell from the sources nothing has actually changed in him. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zsero (talk • contribs)

I would suggest that we need someone who is more self-identifying as having definitively changed from gay to straight or vice versa. Changing to or from bisexual doesn't seem terribly noteworthy but I'm open to discussion on it. -- Banjeboi 10:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I think any change in sexual orientation should suffice. Joshuajohanson (talk) 17:32, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be awfully broad. I'm concerned about category creep and suggest we try to provide some guidance. -- Banjeboi 01:31, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd say particularly noted for having changed from one sexual orientation to another. I think a change from a homosexual orientation to a bisexual orientation counts as changing sexuality. Joshuajohanson (talk) 02:00, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

And possibly vice versa - I would want sourcing that this was definitely seen as a change so we avoid promoting synthesis or OR. I'm aware of many people who have "experimented" or just never liked whatever labels, etc. so we should aim for clarity for everyone's benefit. -- Banjeboi 02:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Discussion copied from Talk:David Benkof

User:Joshuajohanson added Category:Changing sexuality to this article. I disagree with this. Benkof doesn't appear to have changed his actual sexuality, just what he calls himself. He doesn't claim to be attracted to people to whom he wasn't before, or to have stopped being attracted to people to whom he was before. Is a change in the label one applies to oneself really enough to count as "changing sexuality"? It seems to me that that would make the category not very useful. -- Zsero (talk) 01:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Sexuality has several meanings, including sexuality (orientation) and human sexuality, which seems to be more about behavior. He not only changed his sexual orientation, from gay to bisexual, but he also changed his sexual behavior. Same-sex attraction is only one small part of sexuality. Joshuajohanson (talk) 07:12, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, becoming chaste, even for a long time, is not a change in sexuality. Otherwise you'll have to include every previously married person who becomes a priest, monk or nun, or for that matter every person who conforms to conventional morality and becomes divorced or widowed. Or just anyone who's having a long dry spell. It's not as if Benkof has been having sex with women; he's just sworn off sex altogether. (And we have no idea how well this resolution has held, nor would I expect us ever to know, since it's nobody's business but his; all of us make resolutions and then occasionally slip from them.) If and when he actually marries a woman, perhaps we can regard that as a change in behaviour, but even then we'd have to include too many people who've done similar things. -- Zsero (talk) 14:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

It is the combination of that with his change in sexual orientation. He changed his sexual orientation from gay to bisexual. Even if his underlining attractions didn't change, sexual orientation "also refers to an individual’s sense of personal and social identity based on those attractions, behaviors expressing them, and membership in a community of others who share them." He changed his personal and social identity to become bisexual, whereas a married person who becomes a monk doesn't change to become bisexual. Joshuajohanson (talk) 16:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Additions

• Elton John
• Darren Hayes

Do they belong here? (If yes, please add them; I probably won't check this any time soon.) Qwerty (talk) 04:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)