Category talk:Orthodox rabbis from New York City

This category's description is wrong and subcats need to be fixed.

This category should only be for rabbis from NYC, not "associated" with NYC. And because of YU and YTV Rosh Yeshivas being now under this category, you have so many people who are not from NYC at all. For example, Moshe_Rosen_(Nezer_HaKodesh) should not be listed as "from NYC." More egregious is Shimon_Shkop who is now an American Orthodox Rabbi and a rabbi from NYC. I think while the intent was good to avoid overlinking, the end result is not good. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 04:48, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Just to add as I did on the WT page, there should be a geographic cat, and a YU/YTV or other schools cat, but they are not necessarily the same. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 04:58, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I hear, but didn't these rabbis actually live in NYC, and are more than just associated with it? Charlie Smith FDTB (talk) 15:03, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Charlie Smith FDTB, Rabbi Shkop lived in NYC for one year, while Rosh Yeshiva of YU. He wasn't "from" NYC. And the category was never on his page, but now, his parent cat has him as being from NYC. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:27, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Charlie Smith FDTB, Also, as I wrote below, it also means they are American rabbis, which is incorrect. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:30, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Why would we not list Rosen as from NYC? As far as I can tell he lived/worked there from 1928 until his death in 1957 and is associated with NYC over any other geographic location. What more could you want? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 15:29, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Horse Eye Jack, It may be true for him, but is he "from" NYC? But the point remains, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with having two cats, one for geography, and one for school/institution. In the case we have now, if YU would have a visiting Rosh Yeshiva, that person would then be an American Rabbi and a rabbi from NYC. Like, right now, he's listed as an American Rabbi, but is he? And Rabbi Shimon Shkop is most certainly not an American rabbi. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:30, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes he is “from” NYC. Maybe I’m missing your point, he is not currently listed as an American Rabbi (but he should be) and neither is Shkop. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 03:43, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Just adding, that in Rosen's case, he was listed as NYC and YU. Also, the cat was originally NYC rabbis, then it was changed to NYC or have anything to do with NYC, which is a little unclear. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:32, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I do agree however that YU and YTV should not be subcategories of Orthodox rabbis from New York City. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 15:31, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

• These categories are not meant to be citizen tests. Category:Ethnic groups in Cleveland and Category:Fictional characters from Cleveland are sub-categories (down the tree) of Category:American people by location. Are ethnic groups or fictional characters "Americans"? Do fictional characters show their "American" passports when they go through border security at "Neverland"? The category description at Category:People from Cleveland reads: The people in this category were born in, notable residents of, or otherwise closely associated with Cleveland, Ohio., so there is clear precedent for this sort of language. And notice it doesn't say "The people in this category are American citizens who were born in, notable residents of, or otherwise closely associated with Cleveland, Ohio," even though it is also a sub-cat of Category:American people by location. The super-majority of the rosh yeshivas of those clearly American yeshivas were either Americans themselves, or otherwise escapees from some anti-Semitic country somewhere, so that is American enough for me. IMO there is nothing wrong with the way it is now. StonyBrook (talk) 21:04, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

  StonyBrook, Shimon Shkop isn't an American rabbi. Your comparison to fictional characters isn't comparable. In this case there is no harm in having a geographic cat and a categorization cat. The fact that a "super majority" have no problem means that some do. There is no cost to having the old categories, which didn't result in problems and we should strive to have the categories be 100% valid, not valid for a super-majority. It has nothing to do with citizen tests. Shkop for example at no point had a NYC or American categorization on his page, now he does. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 23:06, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Just saying Your comparison to fictional characters isn't comparable without explaining why is not helpful to a discussion. Is a fictional character according to you then considered an American? Ghoulem Berrah is in Category:Yale School of Medicine faculty and Category:Indiana University Bloomington alumni, both of which tree up to Category:American people, but he was not an American, he was an Algerian. So what do you want to do, take out these categories from the American people tree because of one person? Shkop has exactly zero categorization, or any other indication in his article that he was American, and neither does Berrah. This is a straw man. As to your other point, you can add Category:American Orthodox rabbis to all the YU rosh yeshivas if it makes you happy, but the point is that if a person is a YU rosh yeshiva, for the most part you can be sure that he is in America, he is Orthodox, he is a rabbi, and he is strongly associated with New York City. And for the future, if you are able to ping me as you did now, there is no need to leave a note on my talk page. StonyBrook (talk) 00:05, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

StonyBrook, not sure why you're getting snippy and why you don't want a talkpage notice, that is the preferred way over a ping. And you pointing to other categories is OTHERSTUFF. A category should be 100% compliant, not a "super majority." And your point about me adding American Orthodox Rabbis to YU doesn't make sense because right now, YU is a subcat of that, so a YU Rosh Yeshiva is already in that category, even if they don't belong. While removing overlinking is a good thing, that's only if the end result is 100% fully compliant. In this case it isn't and it should be reverted. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 01:46, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

This is not a case of OTHERSTUFF, it is the nature of categorization on WP. This is evidenced by the necessity of an Algerian like Ghoulem Berrah, or a fictional character, or an ethnic group falling into the tree category of being an American when none of them are those things, and neither is Shimon Shkop. Therefore there is no such thing as "100% fully compliant" categorization on Wikipedia, and there never will be. What is 100% true and verifiable is that Shkop was a YU rosh yeshiva, and he is categorized that way and only that way; and no harm will befall the encyclopedia if the category is part of NYC and America. StonyBrook (talk) 02:05, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

StonyBrook, and what harm will befall the encyclopedia if we have it categorized as it was before? You introduced a solution where there is no problem, but introduced a problem. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 02:10, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

There is no harm in having last year's model car either, but the world is always improving. You saying that I introduced a problem is your opinion, and your opinion only. Do I need to tell you that it is preferable to have one specific category instead of having many general categories that clutter up the category box? StonyBrook (talk) 02:20, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

StonyBrook, that is preferable when all the cats fit. In this case they don't. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 02:42, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I say that they do, so we will have to agree to disagree. StonyBrook (talk) 02:45, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you StonyBrook, I don’t see the logic in Sir Joseph’s argument and they appear to be tripping all over themselves making it. They appear to be arguing for a rather extreme take on “______ from X” which is foreign to my understanding of how we use it on wikipedia. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 03:43, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Horse Eye Jack, "I do agree however that YU and YTV should not be subcategories of Orthodox rabbis from New York City. Horse Eye Jack (talk)" I'm not the one tripping here. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 04:37, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Wrong thread. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 04:41, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Horse Eye Jack, no, this is the topic, and how this category should not have YTV and YU as subpages. YTV and YU has its own categories and should not be a geographic based cat. NYC goes up to NY and US. That is the topic of this thread. I get the need to disagree with me, but the topic of this page is how to categorize YU/TV and rabbis in NYC, and how they can have two cats on their page, no need to have only one. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 04:45, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

What do you mean? The quoted text (which you never responded to, this isnt that thread) is me *agreeing* with you. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 04:52, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Horse Eye Jack, right, and now you are saying you don't agree with me and want to combine the categories because they were never meant to be 100% compliant so that YTV or YU can be under NYC. Bottom line is that there should be two categories, one for geography and one for yeshiva. They should not be combined. StonyBrook disagrees. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 04:55, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

I either misunderstand StonyBrook’s point or I don’t understand yours. You still haven't responded above regarding your understanding about what categories are actually being applied to these pages. Please do so. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 05:17, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Horse Eye Jack, considering that you said that "I do agree however that YU and YTV should not be subcategories of Orthodox rabbis from New York City" then we agree. this category should not have YTV and YU under it. That is all. StonyBrook is saying it should be under it and it doesn't matter that some rabbis will be categorized incorrectly. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 05:40, 26 July 2020 (UTC)