Category talk:Greek fascists

Suggestion: re-name this page from "Category:Greek fascists" to "Category:Greek radical nationalists"

I believe that this article should be re-named from "Category:Greek fascists" to the broader "Category:Greek radical nationalists" or even to the broadest category of "Category:Greek nationalists". The "Greek fascists" category is very narrow in scope because it is specifically about fascism.

While there were numerous Greek individuals who praised Mussolini's fascism (including Eleftherios Venizelos) and numerous individuals that would fit the scholarly definition of "fascism" in that they were proponents of authoritarian and socialistic nationalism I am hesitant to add them to the list because I know that most, if not all of them, would not have accepted the label of "fascist" because of Mussolini's state-sponsored anti-Hellenic propaganda -- which began to surface in the latter stages of his regime (in order to both prepare Italians for war and to provoke Hellenes) -- and especially because Mussolini attacked Hellas and insulted the entire Hellenic nation with a humiliating ultimatum (which Ioannis Metaxas is famous for rejecting). Ioannis Metaxas, for instance, despite essentially fitting the basic prerequisites for "fascism" never once referred (publicly or privately) to himself or his government as "fascist". In fact, he actually opposed foreign political models, including those of Italy and Germany.

For the same reason, the term "Greek neo-Nazis" should be substituted with "Greek national socialists". Unlike the term "fascism" (which is linguistically Italian), the term "national socialism" is ethnically generic since there are no foreign linguistic overtones to it. "Nazi" (or "neo-Nazi"), on the other hand, is not only not ethnically generic but, moreover, an oxymoron. As I wrote elsewhere on Wikipedia: "[it] is quite ridiculous [to label/denounce non-Germans as "Nazis"/"neo-Nazis"] when one takes into consideration that the term "Nazi" is a contraction for a German word that was ultimately derived from Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or National Socialist German Workers' Party". In short, only a German/Germanic can be a "Nazi" or "neo-Nazi" as the term properly identifies members of the NSDAP or members of groups attempting to re-create the NSDAP or a similar political party. Greek national socialist groups have existed since before the Second World War and there are even contemporary Greeks who politically self-describe as "national socialist" today but they obviously do not go around calling themselves "Nazis" or "neo-Nazis" as this would imply they were followers of a long-defunct German political party or the revival of this German political party and, moreover, the term "Nazi" has a negative connotation for numerous reasons, including the Nazi invasion of Greece. In short, a Greek who would call himself a "Nazi" would be viewed as a traitor as he would be effectively saying that he supports German national socialism (as opposed to Greek national socialism).

As such, I believe that the article would grow significantly if, instead of "fascists" (or "neo-Nazis"), the term "radical nationalists" was implemented. Furthermore, it is more expansive as it would include not just so-called "Greek fascists" but other types of ideologies that bear a resemblance to fascism (including, but not limited to, the Greek variety of national socialism). For an even broader category, I also suggest "Greek nationalists" as this includes all three major types of Greek nationalism. Sub-categories could be created for right-wing nationalists, left-wing nationalists, and radical nationalists.

If anyone has any thoughts about my proposals, please voice them. Critias (talk) 02:36, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your Neo-nazi part of your argument, I believe it is totally unhinged from the common reception of the term. People use words as labels, tags on things, to make something useful out of it - not as etymologically correct "significants", as you suggest. Nazi has become the go-to international term for all death-loving, militarism fueled, authoritarian proponents, that usually (but not always) keep a special relation to Hitler's party and ideology, symbolism, activism. And this correctly is signified by the current use of the term in WP. Sperxios (talk) 11:31, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Description error: the Freethinkers' Party was not fascist but royalist

The category states in its introductory description the following: "This category includes people from Greece that either were members of a Fascist party (i.e., the Freethinker's party of Greece), strongly supported the ideas of Fascism, or self-described as Fascists".'

I want to clarify the fact that the Freethinkers' Party was not fascist. It is a well-known fact that it was royalist. There is a misconception that it was fascist because it was one of the parties created by Ioannis Metaxas before he came to power and his government has been labeled fascist and quasi-fascist by some scholars and, thus, some people have blindly assumed that the party must have been fascist. In any case, here is some evidence regarding the royalist nature of the Freethinkers' Party to relieve all doubt:

"The founding of the party itself was piecemeal and hesitant; in the absence of any other solid evidence in the form of written records what one can say about this matter with relative certainty is that the party sort of emerged from the group of disaffected, royalist officers and his own political cronies in Cephalonia as well as known royalist political figures in Corfu which Metaxas had brought together, after 1918, to oppose the rebel Plastira officer-led republican regime in 1922-23. An important element in the dissemination of the new party's views was a faction of the royalist press". (Source: P.J. Vatikiotis, Popular Autocracy in Greece, 1936-41: A Political Biography of General Ioannis Metaxas. Page 153.)

I actually used this source to make a citation on the Freethinkers' Party article as far back as October 2007 when this fact was challenged but I neglected to correct this page. Hence, I am doing that now. Critias (talk) 01:20, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Greek military government

The Greek military government of 1967-1974 was clearly not a fascist regime and nor were its leaders. Fascism, in very basic terms, is a form of radical nationalism based on authoritarian and anti-capitalist principles. The military government's nationalism, according to most historians, was conservative or rightist rather than radical, its authoritarianism did not constitute a major aspect of its ideology (after all, Papadopoulos made an effort to return to democracy) but rather a utilitarian purpose, and there is no evidence that the regime ever opposed capitalism, let alone tried to replace it with another economic system. The fact of the matter is that Metaxas' 4th of August government is considered to be "quasi-fascist" by a significant amount of historians so the 21st of April government (which had even fewer similarities to fascism) cannot be legitimately labeled as "fascist". If specific individuals in the military government either self-described as fascist or fit the prerequisites of fascism (i.e. the scholarly definition of the term), they should of course be added to the list but, otherwise, they do not belong there and would belong more in a list of Greek nationalists. That said, there are a great many radical nationalists who could legitimately be placed in this category so there should not be a problem in finding any to fill the void left by the removal of the conservative/rightist nationalists. Critias 19:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Just noting that this editor has relied on fascist sources for a number of his edits. Doug Weller talk 08:53, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Good to know. Particularly the "anti-capitalist principles" is telling... the "fasciae" as an organizing principle for industries was a system explicitly devised by its inventors to counter the adoption of communism by workers (cooperatives, shared ownership) . Sperxios (talk) 11:34, 30 October 2018 (UTC)