Category talk:England men's wartime international footballers

This category is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related

Football: England

	Association football portal This category is within the scope of WikiProject Football, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Association football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FootballWikipedia:WikiProject FootballTemplate:WikiProject Footballfootball
	English football portal This category is supported by the English football task force.

Biography: Sports and Games

	Biography portal This category is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	Sports portal This category is supported by the sports and games work group.

Category:England international footballers

Is it possible to clarify who should be included under Category:England international footballers? In particular, do wartime internationals count - did they have official status? My opinion is that, as they are not listed on the FA's website, they have no more "status" than appearances in the wartime leagues. On the article about Joe Bacuzzi, User:Djln is of the opinion that they count and that he should be included in this category. Not wishing to get into an edit war, can someone giva definitive answer. --Daemonic Kangaroo 15:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wartime internationals don't count, I've never seen any reference book that includes them in a player's tally ChrisTheDude 15:19, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It’s not relevant whether the internationals Bacuzzi played in were official or not. The fact is he played for the England national football team and therefore should be regarded as an England international. These wartime internationals did not just include any Englishman available. As the article states, his team mates included the likes of Stanley Matthews, Joe Mercer and Tommy Lawton to name just a few. --Djln 18:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)Djln[reply]

Sorry Djln, I disagree. The wartime internationals, just like the wartime leagues, are usually kept in a section of their own and not included with the official competitions. - fchd 18:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree. They have never been and never will be full internationals, however good the times were. Yes, the two wars cut some very good players' careers short but players like Bacuzzi can't be listed as England international footballers. Peanut4 19:52, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On the flip side of your argument about how good some of the players were, in one international - England v Wales on June 7, 1941, Lester Finch, of non-league amateur side Barnet, played. Are you still serious that these players are full internationals? Peanut4 22:44, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Secondly, Stan Mortensen, an Englishman, came on as a substitute in one game (England v Wales on September 25, 1943) for Wales to replace the injured Ivor Powell, even before subs were used internationally. Peanut4 22:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So we just ignore seven years of football history and pretend that no football took place at all ! Competitive football continued to be played throughout the war years and this included internationals. Jack Rollin wrote a whole book on the subject - Soccer at War – 1939 - 45 [1]. What makes these games less valid then those played at any other time ? Bacuzzi played for England and that is a fact that cannot be denied. He therefore should be included in as an England international. On what grounds were the England teams that Bacuzzi played any less England then pre-war and post war teams ? Djln--Djln 21:28, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry Djln, but I think you're trying to re-write history rather than record it. Peanut4 21:33, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My two penny's worth - Bacuzzi's international career ended in 1946, one year after the end of the war...GiantSnowman 21:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Evidently, any matches he played between the end of the war and the end of 1946 were still classed as wartime fixtures, or Bacuzzi would be listed on an England stats website. - PeeJay 22:08, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Football in England didn't fully start again until the 1946-47 season, despite the war ending in August 1945 and VE Day before that being in May 1945. Peanut4 22:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- Peanut, you could not be more wrong. Football never stopped being played in England during the war. The only major difference was that their was no national league played due to travel restrictions. Explain these articles - 1939-40 in English football, 1940-41 in English football, 1941-42 in English football etc Djln —Preceding comment was added at 22:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay maybe fully should be officially. Although 1946-47 season is wrong because the FA Cup was played in 1945-46 season. Peanut4 22:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rewriting history ! How exactly ? Bacuzzi did play for England not just once but 13 times. England played 36 internationals between 1939 and 1946 according to Rsssf stats [2]. Are we just meant to ignore this fact ? Who exactly decided that these internationals were unofficial anyway, even the ones played in the 1945-46 season, after the war was over. Nobody has explained why these games have been declared unofficial and why they should not be included. What are we supposed to do when writing about players from this era ? Ignore the fact that these games took place and not include them in articles! How about this for a rewrite:
- Between 1939 and 1946 Joe Bacuzzi played no football at all. Not officially anyway. Might have had a kick about with Stanley Matthews at Wenbley but again this was unofficial. Djln--Djln 22:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We're not saying don't mention the games, of course they were played. Just that Bacuzzi cannot be categorised as an England international. You're quoting Rsssf. The first line of this page [3] from the same website says all internationals were unofficial. Peanut4 22:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are avoiding the question. Who decided these games were unofficial and why ? Can you answer this please. Djln --Djln 23:00, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good question. Probably more the reverse because no-one adopted them as official and because no caps were awarded. Peanut4 23:08, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's precisely the reason why he can't be considered an England international, really. If he wasn't awarded any caps - physical or not - for his appearances, then he's not an international. - PeeJay 23:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- - Internationals were organised by FA, an official body. No ! Weither he recieved caps or not does not take away the fact that he played for England Djln--Djln 23:20, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the standard of players and use of subs. Again both points are not valid. According to the wiki article on Substitute (soccer), subs were used during the 1934 FIFA World Cup qualification campaign. I believe this was an official competition! If the quality of player used decides what games are official and what are’nt, then I will be e-mailing the FA and asking them to delete any game featuring Geoff Thomas, Carlton Palmer and Gary Neville from their official records. Djln--Djln 23:20, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's keep the libelous statements to a minimum please. Anyway, like we've just said, if a player wasn't awarded an official cap for an appearance, then it's not official and doesn't count towards their international appearances total. - PeeJay 23:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about a category specifically for England wartime internationals ?. Surely nobody can object to that ?Djln--Djln 23:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I was just going to say this, before I got edit conflicted: By all means write about their wartime games in their articles. Also I don't see what is wrong with either creating Category:England wartime international footballers as a sub category of Category:England international footballers or if that gets shot down, List of England wartime international footballers. Kind regards to all, King of the North East (T/C) 23:38, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the creation of Category:England wartime international footballers would be a great "compromise". On reviewing the RSSSF article there are over 70 players who appeared for England. Apart from Bacuzzi, the most well known player who never plyaed an "official" match is Frank Soo. --Daemonic Kangaroo 06:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My Football League stats books count wartime and official internationals separately - this is particularly pertinent from an Arsenal fan's point of view, as Leslie Compton is regarded as a dual football & cricket international but his brother Denis is not - because he only played wartime football matches for England. It is important to make the distinction between them both, which is in no way whitewashing their achievements and does not mean we cannot mention them. Making a separate category above is the right way to go about it, in my view. Qwghlm 08:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]