Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 47

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USL League 1

I was going through the archives and noticed that in archives 30, 32, 33, and 34 there seems to be some consensus that USL League One (tier 3 in the US/Canada pyramids) didn't meet fully professional status and shouldn't be on the list? These discussions were often framed against the similar tier 3 league NISA. Now to be clear my opinion is that NISA does not meet FP standards and won't argue that, but I guess I'd like some background onto why USL League One is included, or if it's inclusion on the main page is now erroneous as it appeared that by the end of 2020 in the archives, users were treating it as if it had been removed. It was noted that the citations given on the main page are all from the USL League One itself, and just as NISA's similar statements, don't really mean much. Maybe I'm just misreading it? Thanks everyone! Pirmas697 (talk) 18:58, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

So, is anyone ever going to address this comment and issue? There isn't any doubt, if we are being objective, that both US D3 leagues do not meet FP. However, usl League One continues to show up on the list. Frankly, failure to act on this calls into question the standard itself and the editor's willingness to apply those standards objectively. If people are not going to use them to differentiate pro leagues from semi-pro/partially pro leagues, then why have the standards or this list at all. ChattaGooner (talk) 15:21, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

If you can provide some sources that would be a start. GiantSnowman 15:25, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

So, I need to prove a negative, that usl L1 isn't fully pro? I can only start by saying that the evidence that they are is very weak. It's a list of articles that cite the league as professional which I am sure is based on nothing more than the press release from the league itself. It's certainly not based on any analysis of the player's pay. So, it shouldn't have ever been included in the first place. You can also refer to the comments above from Pirmas697. ChattaGooner (talk) 15:34, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Did a quick google search and came up with this: https://kfoxtv.com/sports/locomotive/usl-players-association-issues-counterproposal-to-usl. USL players have asked for the *new* minimum to be $20,000 (and that is for the championship). Is that a livable wage? Because that suggests that there are players now making less than that and, if you think that a D3 franchise would pay less than a D2, then you'd have to guess that many usl L1 franchises pay way less than the $20,000. ChattaGooner (talk) 15:38, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Just to give a couple of figures: the minimum yearly wage in the US is $14,500, while the median yearly wage is $40,000. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:13, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

To further add on, there was an Athletic article released back in 2018 that calls into question multiple tenets of the USL Championship's (then United Soccer League) "fully professional" status. It is paywalled however I want to call out a few parts and I would be more than willing to screenshot the whole thing and put it on Imgur if I need to just to show I am not cherry picking.

1: There's an agent, Patrick McCabe of Stellar Group, saying players for Reno 1868 FC "that are earning zero-dollar contracts".

2: It also states "some USL players are working for nothing other than housing." That isn't livable.

3: There are players who will drive ride share (Uber, Lift) after games or on weekends to make extra money because of the low wages. That to me borders on the team not paying enough and them needing a second job, which is a strike against "fully professional."

To also expand on one of the links ChattaGooner, there's another article from last year by the Tampa Bay Times. I think there's something to say when the players are asking for a minimum of $20,000 (when the U.S. Government denotes a family of two earning less than $17.2 is under the poverty line), but also there's this line:

"Players say they can’t take more of a hit. Steinberger tells stories of players out of college who end up getting cut from MLS camps and latch onto USL rosters on deals that sometimes include only housing and game bonuses.

Rowdies center back Forrest Lasso, who is in his sixth professional season, once was of those players just trying to get by. While playing under his rookie contract with the USL’s Charleston Battery, he picked up a second job as a soccer coach to supplement his income. And in the offseason, Lasso — who studied business economics at Wofford and considered law school — picked up a part-time marketing job that netted more than playing soccer."

Overall, there's holes in this whole thing. There needs to be a whole evaluation of USL (both leagues) as being "fully professional" and if that means either removing them from this list or altering the criteria. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 16:21, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Most of these leagues have season-only contracts, too, and playing in them doesn't mean you necessarily pass WP:GNG. SportingFlyer T·C 16:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Based on the above, I am happy to remove USL 1 from the 'fully pro' list. GiantSnowman 16:59, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Hm, I'm not sure I would remove it yet. A lot of the above seems really harsh. Forest Lasso being on his rookie contract and supplementing his salary. First, we don't even know how much he was paid on that contract, whether it was small enough that he couldn't live on that salary, and what his full motivation was for coaching (starting preparation for post-playing career). Also, I wouldn't take quotes from Zach Steinberger seriously. It's his words and not confirmed and also this article is about the players working on a Collective Bargaining Agreement which probably means talking in a way to strengthen their position to the league. We also don't know if these are guys on short-term deals or full-time deals... both of which are common in USL. Going with the Athletic article, the quote by McCabe is also without context, not knowing which players were on zero-contracts. Just above we have quotes about these being for backup goalkeepers or backup squad players and again we don't know if full-time or part-time deals. The uber line is also not fair as we again don't know whether this is out of pure need or just to supplement their salaries. A lot of this is no different to say Premier League clubs playing young players (generally backup players) without professional contracts. None of this is proving that the starting players in these leagues or even the immediate backups are not being paid a livable wage or are in trouble of being in literal poverty.

Also, I think there is enough to satisfy WP:GNG. USL League One clubs definitely get enough coverage in their local markets and newspapers and even nationally League One gets a good amount of coverage. And finally, I think it should be brought up that the editors here are those who generally edit the National Independent Soccer Association and are probably not happy with NISA not being added to the list. Also User:ChattaGooner was just created and oddly enough, has only ever participated in this discussion. That should probably be looked into. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:54, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

So when users bring up information that goes against WP:FPL, that's being "too harsh"? Additionally, I want to address the NISA comment (which feels like WP:OTHERSTUFF). I am of the opinion that neither NISA nor USL League One (or USL Championship) neatly fit into the "fully professional" standard. There's issues with contracts, issues with GNG, and plenty of other things. When these discussions about NISA have taken place there's been plenty of arguments saying it isn't much different than USL, but then those statements are taken as OTHERSTUFF (since saying "why does that get to stay on but not this" isn't a valid argument) and the whole process moves on. Now, when USL is being evaluated to those same standards in it's own discussion the editors get questioned as being bias. That's not fair. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 19:27, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

This is information that isn't that specific or details enough to go against What is a "fully professional" league?. What would be that, is showing a comprehensive article which shows that all or the majority of players need a second job because they can't live at all on their salary, that they are not being paid at all. Not that they might uber or that the back-end of the roster might be on smaller deals. Also, it isn't really OTHERSTUFFEXISTS to point that out about editors. NISA wasn't considered so USL League One was gone after and there was consideration for USL Championship to show that all leagues under Major League Soccer are not fully-professional. I don't see the arguments that NISA is no different that USL. There definitely is a difference in terms of payment for the majority of the squad in NISA and general coverage of the league and nothing has come up to refute that. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:56, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

"There definitely is a difference in terms of payment for the majority of the squad in NISA" I'm going to need some citation here. I'm sure that's how a lot of folks feel about NISA vs. usl, but I've seen nothing that shows the difference. There's certainly not been any "comprehensive article" showing a difference. ChattaGooner (talk) 20:08, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

If the main argument is that the sources "aren't specific," my counter would be that the sources proving USL League One as Fully Professional aren't very strong. The bar to clear isn't that high and USL1 shouldn't have added in the first place then. Pirmas (the editor who introduced this) even said this has been brought up before and it's been said to remove USL League One before. See Archive 30. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 20:19, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Okay. this says that the average USL salaries range between $25,000 and $30,000. That doesn't specify between Championship or League One and doesn't talk between pre- or post-tax (which the monthly's pretty much insinuate but we don't know for sure). This is also an average. The Athletic says that there are a few guys earning above $100,000 while the grand, grand majority earn five-figures. The Athletic also makes a point in regards to USL USSF sanctioning, the "League must demonstrate adequate financial viability to ensure continued operation on a season‐by‐season basis" which includes "player and staff salaries and wages, stadium lease commitments and third party vendor obligations in addition to commitments by each team to the league". NISA has provisional sanctioning, not full. These salaries are fine to work on full-time without the absolute need to take on a second job beyond something to generate some more income. It isn't amazing or glamorous but it's enough to go by, especially for the players who are senior players beyond the back-end or youth/rookie players (who still can get paid okay). No one needs to take on an actual second job like being a banker, lawyer, baker etc. like leagues listed in not fully-professional. The league has also demonstrated it's professionalism by extending to "facilities, equipment, expenses and other support as necessary to allow full-time pursuit of the sport" with other support counting as housing etc.. Additionally, we have plenty of coverage on both leagues, just look it up for the club's and their coverage in local news. Look, I am not against NISA being added but in all of this, I have not seen any articles reference an average salary, anything to do with general standards around teams, or proof of greater coverage. At least for USL League One clubs, even the II sides, I can find articles outside the league covering recent matches and other stories surrounding the sides, whether about specific players, pre-season etc. For NISA, I can't find that beyond Chattanooga FC (lots of coverage) and Detroit City FC (also lots of coverage). Maryland and Stumptown have a bit as well. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 22:08, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Please stop bringing up NISA in this argument like it strengthens your case. I replied to a specific allegation. Anything else that has to do with that other league does nothing in this argument. As for your salaries argument, saying the median is around $25k would mean there are players getting lower than that (possibly including those getting paid nothing mentioned previously) and once again that would be close to the poverty line for a family of two. That article talking about El Paso says the players want a minimum of 20k, does that mean they are not getting that much for the most part? However, if that is enough to prove FPL for the Championship - fine. Everyone else can have a say in that. But I'm still not sold on League One. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

It's the average, not the median. I'm bringing up NISA because it isn't the same as USL League One. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 01:32, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Just a note: NISA received full membership at the 2020 USSF AGM. They have to meet the same PLS that all other pro leagues in the US have to. That has nothing to do with the issue that I have with usl league one being mentioned when there is no evidence that players in that league (not uslc) receive a living wage. ChattaGooner (talk) 03:51, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

For this grievous mistake, I shall resign from my post on the wiki-council --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 04:47, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Well, not sure what you mean by that, but please "look into me". I'd be happy to give you all of my other socials and I'll go ahead and admit that I have ZERO love for usl and am a supporter of a NISA club (I'm not, by the way asking for NISA to be included, only that the standards be applied in an objective fashion). That doesn't change any of the facts that there's ZERO proof that usl league one teams pay a living wage. None. There never has been any evidence. The cited "evidence" provided is weak at best. The league should have never been included here. Do they get local coverage? Sure, as do several NISA clubs. Does usl L1 get national coverage? Not a whole lot TBH. Now, people are asking others to prove a negative, that usl players aren't paid a living wage. I will just respond in kind. Provide ANY proof that usl league one pays its players a living wage and I'll concede. ChattaGooner (talk) 19:46, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm out. Clearly, any evidence I provide will not move this forward. Instead, I've been told offline that I'm just doing damage to the case. So, I'll leave it to others to decide. However, it's fairly clear to anyone who follows the lower leagues in the US that neither of the D3 leagues are "fully professional" using FP standards. Several people have defended that and provided at least some evidence in support of that case. Absent any other evidence to the contrary, league one should be removed from the list. ChattaGooner (talk) 01:40, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Checking back in on this - do we think we have a consensus or enough to further the discussion? ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 00:16, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

NPSL\Fully Professional Mandate

I don't understand the "fully professional" reasoning to be a mandate for a page. There are NPSL teams that draw 1000s of people to games and have players that have wiki pages. I think this would be notable enough to warrant a page. On top of that, many NPSL teams DO have pages, will they be removed since they are no longer professional? Kevinw33 (talk) 16:58, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@Kevinw33: Clubs don't need to be professional to have a Wikipedia page. There is no correlation between the notability of a club and that of a player. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:09, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme: On my draft submission one of the reason it was declined was because it did not qualify to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues Kevinw33 (talk) 17:17, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Georgia_Storm Kevinw33 (talk) 17:18, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@Kevinw33: The reviewer was wrong, this list has nothing to do with club notability. Clubs must pass WP:GNG (like any other article on Wikipedia). Generally, per WP:FOOTYN, teams are presumed notable if they have played in the top level of their country's football structure (for the US, the MLS), or if they have ever played in the country's domestic cup (so, the U.S. Open Cup). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:21, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme: Thank you! I was able to link the notability guidelines to the reviewer saying the team can qualify for the US Open Cup through their league so hopefully he will accept that. Now... I need sources! Kevinw33 (talk) 17:31, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme: nevermind, he declined again because it says "has played in" the US Open rather than "can qualify for" the cup. Back to the drawing board. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevinw33 (talk • contribs)

Reserve teams playing in 3. Liga

I've searched the archives and haven't found an up to date discussion pertaining exactly to what I'm asking. Will players contracted to next season's reserve teams in the 3. Liga (Borussia Dortmund II, SC Freiburg II), who haven't yet made an appearance in a fully professional league or between two fully professional clubs in a cup, become notable upon making their first appearance in the league? Beatpoet (talk) 15:19, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@Beatpoet: Yes, they would pass WP:NFOOTY. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:22, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

If there are reserves teams playing in 3. Liga, how can it be considered "fully pro"? Seany91 (talk) 15:26, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@Seany91: Because all players are contracted on a full-time basis, and don't have secondary jobs. For the Serie C for example, where Juventus' reserve team play, there are minimum salary figures, meaning that all players contracted are under professional contracts. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:29, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes - they are just senior teams that play in the national league system, but happen to be the 2nd XI of a bigger team... GiantSnowman 18:33, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Notability of a player

I got a player who played only in a league that is listed in the WP:NOTFPL. He had played two matches in the OFC Champions League. I also saw writing in this citation saying, 'None of the top-tier domestic competitions in Oceania is fully professional.' So can I conclude that he fails WP:NFOOTY. I think I can. Ken Tony ^{Shall we discuss?} 11:54, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

If a player has not played in a competitive match between two clubs who both play in fully-professional leagues, they will not meet WP:NFOOTBALL. However, they still might be notable per WP:GNG if they have received significant coverage. GiantSnowman 11:57, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: This person fails WP:GNG. However, he played in OFC Champions League. What about that? Ken Tony ^{Shall we discuss?} 13:50, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

If they fail GNG then passing NFOOTBALL does not matter (especially if they only made one or two appearances) - although this person appears to fail both so is definitely non-notable! GiantSnowman 14:46, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you GiantSnowman for your help. Ken Tony ^{Shall we discuss?} 14:58, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Russian Professional Football League

I believe that the Russian Professional Football League should be included in the list of fully professional football leagues. Since all players are paid a salary (and they do not need additional sources of income), and a work record is also required for employment. Mish-FCTM (talk) 19:27, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

@Mish-FCTM: Can you provide a source that states that (virtually) all players in the PFL are paid a livable wage, close enough to the minimum salary and/or average salary of Russia? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:15, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: https://www.sports.ru/football/1032153036.html PFL President: "The average monthly salary in the league is 55-60 thousand rubles", https://www.euro-football.ru/article/146172/1004361756_utkin_futbolistyi_pfl_poluchayut_po_30-50_tyisyach_vozmutitelno_im_sokraschat_zarplatyi Mish-FCTM (talk) 20:38, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

@Mish-FCTM: There's a sentence (Во втором дивизионе на всю жизнь не заработаешь) which Google Translate translates to "You can't make money in the second division for a lifetime"; what do they mean? Also, Russia's minimum wage is 90,000 rubles a year, which is about 2 to 3 times more than what an average PFL player earns. Another thing: those articles state the average wage of a player in the league (which is already much lower than the minimum wage figure); this implies that players in lower-tier clubs are earning even less. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:57, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: In Russia, the subsistence minimum is 11,510 rubles, and the average salary in 2020 is 35,361 rubles (according to official data from Rosstat). I live in Russia and I can assure you that a small number of people receive 90,000 rubles. Mish-FCTM (talk) 21:33, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: The source you brought says Russia's minimum wage is 7,500 Russian rubles per month, while Mish-FCTM's source says The average monthly salary in the league is 55-60 thousand rubles, which is 7-8 times the minimum wage you quoted. --SuperJew (talk) 18:51, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I misread. I thought that it was 55-60,000 per year, not month. In that case yes, I would include the league in the list. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 19:03, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

There is no evidence that footballers who have played in the RPFL as their highest achievement can come close to satisfying the GNG. There are a host of AfDs prior to the removal of this league from WP:FPL a few years ago to back this up. I strongly oppose returning this league to the list. Jogurney (talk) 18:00, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Per this conversation, the league seems to meet this list's criteria virtually all adult players are paid a salary that they can live on and do not need additional sources of income. Whether this criteria is correct to presume notability or not is another discussion you can open, but seems that as it stands currently, the league should be added to the list. --SuperJew (talk) 19:52, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Have to agree with SuperJew here - but I'd support a change in the criteria to move more towards GNG-supported list. GiantSnowman 20:00, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Changing the criteria would just make the list redundant because it would no longer align with the guideline. What you need to change (if you so wish) is the guideline itself. Number 57 20:14, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

@Number 57: How so? The guideline says Players who have played, and managers who have managed, in a competitive game between two teams from fully professional leagues will generally be regarded as notable. Or are you referring to a change such as to make it "players who have played 10 competitve games etc."? --SuperJew (talk) 20:40, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm talking about GS's suggestion to change this list to be "GNG-supported" rather than a list of leagues that have fully-professional status. Number 57 20:42, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, that's what I meant - long day... GiantSnowman 20:53, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

The sports.ru article linked above quotes the President of the RPFL as saying you cannot make a living on the wages in the league: "Во втором дивизионе на всю жизнь не заработаешь. Средняя месячная зарплата – 55-60 тысяч. Рублей. В зависимости от задач где-то выше, где-то ниже. Жесткие рамки не установлены." Why are we thinking he is wrong? Jogurney (talk) 23:50, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

• Sorry I just realized I repeated Nehme's comment above. However, I think it's a critical question, and one that hasn't been directly answered. Jogurney (talk) 23:53, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Estonian top tier

Per this discussion at WT:FOOTY, I am bringing it here for further consensus. Pinging involved users, @Govvy, Stevie fae Scotland, PeeJay, Nehme1499, BlameRuiner, and GiantSnowman:. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 19:37, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

What does the source say? GiantSnowman 20:52, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: As Nehme1499 wrote on the discussion linked The article used to source the statement says (according to Google Translate): "It must be taken into account that for the first time, thanks to solidarity support, our league is fully professional, which creates a completely new situation and even closer competition" (statement by the president of the Estonian FA). --SuperJew (talk) 03:54, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

If the source is reported from a respected media organisation then I have to arguments against it. I don't know the website that well, but from looking at the footer it's probably respectable even if their website has a couple of security floors. Govvy (talk) 09:54, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

The problem is with the wording "solidarity support": what does that specifically mean? Also, someone saying that the league is "fully-pro" might mean something different to them than it does to us; we need more substantial information. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 10:53, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm with Govvy; erring on the side of inclusion is always a good practice on WP, and just assuming based on stereotypes when faced with a reputable media reporting it not. Seany91 (talk) 12:43, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

While it's not impossible, I have a hard time believing it. Estonia is ranked very low in football. I would need more confirmation, and not from a primary source. Geschichte (talk) 11:20, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Agreed that the source is not enough. GiantSnowman 17:25, 14 October 2021 (UTC)