Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 46

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Ireland

Hi all, I am wondering can it be reviewed that the League of Ireland guidelines can be updated and be included as a professional league? The Irish Government have stated this in February 2021, as it allowed the league to resume despite the Covid-19 restrictions as it was deemed a 'professional league'. [1] I believe the league is being unfairly treated by current wiki guidelines. comment added by Kilcock123 (talk • 20:34,26 March 2021 (UTC)

What sources are there that every player in the league (or near enough) gets a full-time wage from their clubs? GiantSnowman 20:50, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

"The Premier Division is completely professional (though not all clubs are full-time and some players do have jobs outside of the game)" - said Stephen McGuinness of players’ union, the PFAI, February 2021. Finn Harps are the club who are part time in the league. The majority of players are on full time wages from their clubs. |a comment added by Kilcock123 (talk • 22:04,26 March 2021 (UTC)

Then the league is not "fully-pro" and should not be included. GiantSnowman 22:30, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

What classifies as 'near enough' then? comment added by Kilcock123 (talk • 22:47, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

A mere handful of players, not an entire team. GiantSnowman 07:50, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Soviet Top League

With the Russian Premier League being regarded as fully-pro, is it assumed that its predecessor (the Soviet Top League) is also fully-pro? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 20:21, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sir Sputnik and BlameRuiner: pinging Russian speakers. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:25, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

I should clarify that I don't speak Russian. I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. I have no particular insight with respect to the Soviet League. Sir Sputnik (talk) 21:22, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sir Sputnik: Ah oops sorry, I thought you knew Russian from the above discussion about the Belarusian League (I didn't catch the fact that you used a translator). Still, do you know anyone who might help? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:27, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

100% yes. Although finding precise regulation documents may be a bit tough, even in Russian... And there is a nuance. Until some point in late 80s most players were most likely technically employed by whichever organization owned the club: the army (CSKA and various SKA), police (Dynamo), rail (Lokomotiv), plants (Torpedo) and so on, but that was only on paper. The players were paid for football and football only. This was in fact true for most of Eastern Bloc nations and used as loophole to field full strength national teams for Olympics in the amateur-era. --BlameRuiner (talk) 21:27, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

@BlameRuiner: Interesting. Do you think it's possible to find an article or document stating that footballers in the Soviet Top League lived off of football alone? The league would certainly be a very important addition to the list if so. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:37, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

• The Soviet Top League was the last league in the top three European leagues not from Spain, England, Italy, Germany, or France (1982–1988) and was in second place during the English European ban. I'm not sure if it was "fully pro," but we should definitely be endeavouring to include these footballers, and narrowing down the time frame for significant coverage. SportingFlyer T·C 21:40, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

We shouldn’t be looking to encourage a ‘free pass’ for any players from a league without any ‘fully pro’ sourcing. I would imagine a number of Soviet league players were ‘paid’, but don’t have any sources. In the absence of direct FPL evidence then we still have GNG. Eldumpo (talk) 08:41, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Spanish leagues

With UE Lleida season pages being purged, I was trying to work out when the top two Spanish leagues turned pro. I was trying to get a feel for that to help analyse the UE Lleida seasons, so I know which ones can be kept and which ones should go. Govvy (talk) 10:47, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I know this isn't what you asked, but I doubted Liga Portugal 2's credentials, given some teams have 'stadiums' with capacities under 2,000. It turns out they are currently (just about) "fully professional" as reading between the lines they are subsidised by the gambling industry: User:Bring back Daz Sampson/Professionalism in Portuguese football Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 17:48, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Swiss Challenge League

On the page it says "The Challenge League is fully professional" but its not on the list...witch one is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexanderalgrim (talk • contribs) 22:04, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

@Alexanderalgrim: Generally speaking, this page, as all fully-pro leagues are sourced. If you can find a source to prove that the Swiss Challenge League is fully-pro (virtually all players in the league earn enough from football to not have to work a second job), then it can be added to the list. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 22:09, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Alexanderalgrim: I would work under the assumpion that it is not fully-professional unless you can find a source stating otherwise. I have restored content from an old version of the page that stated it was semi-professional, as the claim that it is fully professional didn't have a source. It'd be nice if Doug521 could explain this edit, as they failed to provide a source to back it up. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 22:12, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

USL Second Division

Just wondering what the status of the USL Second Division was during the 2000s. @Keskkonnakaitse: Hack (talk) 16:35, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, the current status in the US is tier 1 and tier 2 (MLS and USL Championship) are fully pro, everything else is not. This includes USL 1/2 and NISA. The rationale is that while players are paid in USL 1 and NISA (maybe in USL 2), it's not what one would call a living wage, and the teams rely heavily on volunteer work. I think there's an argument to be made that USL Championship doesn't meet "fully professional" standards as well, but that's a can of worms I am not prepared to open given the fallout (in the form of loss of notability) is not something I have scoped out. Given this, I don't think the older USL 2nd Division would be more "fully professional" given how much the sport (including wages) has advanced in the last 20 years. Pirmas697 (talk) 18:11, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Nepal Super League

I came across Draft:2021 Kathmandu Rayzrs FC season and it brought me to the article on the Nepal Super League, which was formed a couple months ago. The league claims to be professional, (though I suspect the article may have been written by the league itself) but I don't know if it would be seen as fully professional per FPL's standards. Anybody have a better sense on where they would be? Bkissin (talk) 18:54, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@Bkissin: It's not conclusive by any means but given that the All Nepal Football Association president describes the Martyr's Memorial A-Division League, a non-FPL, as "the major league", I would very much doubt it. Also, it only takes place over one month which is geerally an indication that it is not an FPL. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 19:17, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

If it passes WP:GNG, and it looks like it does, you can accept it. SportingFlyer T·C 16:54, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

References

European League of Football

This planned European League of Football was officially created in November 2020, and is scheduled to kick off on 19 June 2021 (pandemic permitting). Will this new league be recognised here as a fully professional football league? Will it be admissible with regard to notability? --Whiteguru (talk) 06:57, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

@Whiteguru: wrong sport. Seany91 (talk) 07:19, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Feckless American football!       'scuzi --Whiteguru (talk) 07:24, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Missing men's leagues of current FIFA member countries

I thought I'd compile a list of all of the current FIFA member countries (and their top divisions) which are currently missing from the list, hopefully this can serve as a point of reference so that all of these leagues may be added in the future. S.A. Julio (talk) 18:10, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Total missing: 0 (92 at initial posting)

I'm not sure I understand why we need both a list of FPL leagues and also a list of leagues which aren't FPL. Clearly if a league is not on the FPL list, it's not FPL, so what's the point? --SuperJew (talk) 19:19, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Not being on the list may also mean status is unknown or that references cannot be found (there are a few countries that almost certainly have fully-pro leagues, but it's been difficult to source). I think your statement is probably applicable to women's leagues though, as a league being fully-pro would be unusual and probably highlighted somewhere. Number 57 20:07, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

I would assume the main (if not only) use of this list is to know if a league is FPL in relevance to WP:NFOOTY. In that case, if a league is not on the FPL list, it doesn't matter if it's because it's confirmed as not FPL or if it's unknown, a player playing in the league wouldn't be considered notable. --SuperJew (talk) 20:23, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding it, but your point doesn't seem to make sense. If we have a player in a league whose status is currently unclear, we don't know whether they pass WP:NFOOTY or not. Number 57 20:56, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

@Number 57: Say for example there's a player who's only played in the Ecuadorian Serie A at an AfD. Would you say keep or delete based on WP:NFOOTY? --SuperJew (talk) 22:10, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

No-one would be able to !vote either way on the basis of WP:NFOOTY because we don't know the league's professional status. Number 57 22:26, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

If only the verified fully professional leagues were included, that would imply all other leagues missing from the list are not fully professional, which isn't necessarily true. Having two lists is helpful in knowing which leagues are still undetermined. S.A. Julio (talk) 21:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

So what's going on with the Ecuadorian Serie A, is it a FPL? I want to know if I can create a page for a player. Cam (talk) 11:49, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Based on this guideline, no. However that doesn't mean an article can't be produced if you can cite sufficient third party coverage to satisfy GNG. Fenix down (talk) 09:43, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

It doesn't say, that a player has to be a pro (in most league in Europe a player can make an apperance even if he is not a pro, eg a junior). It says that only professional contracts can be signed. There is no such thing as an "amateur contract" in slovenian first league, all contract listed in the pdf are professional contracts. That is the vast majority of players in the league. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 10:35, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

• I've always scratched my head on why it's so difficult to find Honduran and especially Costa Rican references about profesionality (one way or another). And watching such teams play, and knowing that they are televised internationally, I've scratched my head on how the top league isn't fully professional. Someone recently brought this 2016 reference] about the Costa Rican Liga FPD to my attention. I'm told that these are monthly salaries, and the minimum reported is equivalent to that of an average rural wage. But there's only 4 teams here, I don't really know how far down the depth the minimum salary is, etc. But it's the best information one way or another I've seen. I'm not providing a recommendation - just passing on what I've seen. Nfitz (talk) 01:20, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Just a heads up, Costa Rica was added to fully-pro list (along with their second division) a month ago, although there was no consensus reached here on talk page. Not sure how good is the provided reference since I don't know Spanish. It looks like official regulations for 2019 domestic leagues.--BlameRuiner (talk) 07:39, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
    • I have no idea where the Segunda Division even came from, considering the source is just the UNAFUT statutes, which only says that the clubs and players and staff of the first division are professional (without confirming fully pro) and literally does not mention the Segunda at all. Costa Rica has a strong league though and picking a couple redlinked players on Saprissa it takes a couple Google pages to confirm (thanks transfermarkt) but the top of the league at least should all pass WP:GNG. SportingFlyer T·C 07:50, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

For anyone with the time and knowledge of the Spanish language, there is a lot of details on the Liga Nacional de Fútbol Profesional de Honduras website - a list of notes from the president, which may give clarification can be found here - and even better, a list of league regulations can be found here. The Honduran league is often referred to as professional in Honduran media, though I don't know if this is enough to grant it a place on the list. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 10:11, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Further to this, this document confirms the professional status of the league:

ARTÍCULO 14.-
Los Clubes Afiliados se obligan a:
...
6) Celebrar contratos por escrito en el formato autorizado por la LIGA debiendo
ser su contenido impreso con todos y cada uno de sus jugadores, cuerpo
técnico, los cuales deberán ser registrados obligatoriamente en la Secretaría de
la Liga. Requisitos que están regulados en el Reglamento de Registro de
Jugadores y Cuerpos Técnicos de la Liga Nacional de Futbol Profesional.

A rough Google translation tells us that all affiliated clubs in the league must enter into written contracts with each and every one of your players, technical bodies, which must be registered with the secretary of the league. If this isn't enough to confirm professional status, I don't know what is. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 10:39, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Quick ping to those involved to get this pushed through quicker: @S.A. Julio: @SuperJew: @Number 57: @Fenix down: @Nfitz: @BlameRuiner: @SportingFlyer: Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 11:39, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

That would confirm professional status, User:Davidlofgren1996. It wouldn't confirm fully-professional status. The difference is, can the entire squad (or at least the top 20 or so players) fully support themselves playing football, or are they just semi-professional (which is still professional). A good question, is what is the 20th player paid, on the lowest-paid team in the league , as there's always going to be an exception or something. I've no doubt that the Motagua, Olimpia, and Marathóns are going to be fully professional - and all their players receive no end of media coverage. But what of Honduras Progreso? My gut feel is that they are ... but sadly we need more than my gut. Nfitz (talk) 16:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

@Nfitz: I believe this source would cover that. Article 3 states (roughly) that "The professional player must consider playing soccer a way of life." (El jugador Profesional debe considerar la práctica del fútbol como medio de vida). This says to me that it would have to be their only source of income, as this document is specifically relating to contracts. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 17:41, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

I understand this form of Spanish, and while your translation is correct, I read this more as "you can't play people as players who aren't players." I'd like some salary levels before I draw any conclusions, but that's not the worst rule. SportingFlyer T·C 18:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

@SportingFlyer: Hmm I see your point, but I think besides the top European leagues, average player salaries will be very hard to come by. So far I've managed to find this source which states the Honduran players at the 2014 World Cup earned an average yearly wage of £339,498, with 11 out of the 23 players playing in Honduras. With the Honduran national salary being around £10,931 a year, it's almost guaranteed that these players are earning a considerable amount more than that.

Another source is this, a news article from 2009 claiming that Deportes Savio owed a player by the name of Lenin Suárez 38,000 lempiras (£1222.73) as a monthly wage. This would amount to a yearly wage of just over £14,750, putting his earnings above the national average.

Finally, this source, again from 2009, is about a former Honduran league player Allan Lalín, who was asking for $8000 a month. As a forward who had scored 13 in 57 for his club, he doesn't strike me as the best player in the league, but I think this gives a good range for a decent player. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 19:52, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

I kind of agree with Nfitz here, if there are fully professional leagues in Central America, Honduras is morelikely than others to be one of them, but im not seeing confirmation of that here. What I am seeing is quotes indicating a desire for the league to be professional in spirit and attitude, not necessarily fully-professional in terms of salaries. I'd also be wary of drawing conclusions on a league based on one players reported salary demands. As mentioned earlier, we need to see some reporting on the level of salaries across the league. Fenix down (talk) 07:34, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

@Nfitz: @Fenix down: Okay, I have had a look and I have found a few articles that may shed some light on salaries for footballers in Honduras:

1) This article from El Heraldo Honduras is an interview with a former footballer, who has switched to a legal profession. The article states that (rough translation) "In Honduras, it is estimated that no less than a thousand soccer players in different categories play "professionally" (that is, they live on it), with those from Division A (LNP) being the most privileged to have full salaries and dedicate themselves exclusively to it." To me, this clears up any confusion over whether the league is fully professional in terms of spirit and attitude or in terms of salaries.

2) This article from Diari Mes seems to claim that the average salary of a second division side is 77,500 euros(?). I'm not sure if it means lempiras when it says Euros, but besides that point, it states (rough translation) "Thus, the cost of a staff of 25 men where all of them had exceeded 23 years and were limited to the minimum wage established by the LFP would exceed 900,000 euros. The agreement that regulates working conditions in professional football activity establishes a maximum working time of 7 hours a day for players, who have the right to use a full month of vacation with at least 21 days that "they enjoy continued form »." From what I can gather, this seems to imply that the second division also operates at a certain level of professionalism.

3) This source from Vavel claims that "The professional teams in Central America do not give figures of the players' salary, in some cases it is for security in countries such as Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala." This to me implies that it is a salary better than the national average, and the protection is from people looking to steal from them. Even better, it goes on to say "The average salary in the Honduran League is $ 1,800 to $ 18,000". (I am presuming this is monthly, as the next sentence describes the Guatemalan captain's salary as monthly). This would be a minimum of $21,600 and a maximum of $216,000 a year. Both are above the £10,931 average yearly wage cited above. The source also confirms that "All the leagues in Central America have a professional profile, even that of Nicaragua."

I hope this is enough evidence to support my claim. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 21:13, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Excellent work. I've been looking for references like that on and off for years! That's more than enough for Honduras as far as I'm concerned. Does anyone object? Nfitz (talk) 21:22, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

@Nfitz: It’s been just over a week now, safe to say there’s no objections? Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 11:24, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Sure ... be bold and add it to the list, with the references. Nfitz (talk) 13:08, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

References

Ecuador

Any update on whether the league is fully-pro or not? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 19:34, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

I've added (and sourced) Ecuador. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 05:31, 12 March 2021 (UTC)