Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music

Adding a new page on WikiProject Music

Hello, can anybody help me add https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Jolyon_Petch to this group?

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ainamera22 (talk • contribs) 01:26, July 17, 2021 (UTC)

Cleanup of Glen Campbell discography

Glen Campbell discography is clogged with a ton of budget-line, non-notable compilations, most of which actually have articles. I think some mass purging is needed here to AFD the non-notable ones, including everything in the collapsible list below. Many of them IMO don't even warrant redirect; for instance, Southern Nights/Basic is just a budget-line reissue of two existing albums on the same disc, and most of the Curb Records releases are cheap re-recordings. I don't think any of the Koala Records releases are even official either, as every other Koala album I've ever encountered is a bootleg. Some of these articles have existed since 2008 and have never had a source attached.

Tagging @Martin4647:, @Caldorwards4:, @Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars:, @Derek R Bullamore:, @Mr. C.C.:, @Lumdeloo: to assist in trimming the fat here.

Extended content

Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 20:08, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the invite, but I must decline. Campbell's work is well outside my areas of interest, plus I am busy with non-Wikipedia stuff (mostly) until the beginning of October. You may need to look elsewhere. Sorry. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 20:26, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good evening TenPoundHammer, I agree that there is some fat to be trimmed. But I’m afraid you also deleted some official releases which should be included. Also, some of the compilation albums are not actually compilation albums as such. They contain previously unreleased material that was released by companies who owned it. They cannot exactly count as official releases but should be mentioned somewhere (some of them are notable enough to justify their own article as well). Lumdeloo (talk) 19:27, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have restores the live albums and album appearance sections for now. I will double check for releases that can be omitted. The compilations albums I will go through manually. Lumdeloo (talk) 19:55, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Old question I never got an answer to

Tangential–does "national music chart" in NMUSIC#2 refer to any chart considered worthy of inclusion in an article (which is what WP:CHARTS is about, not notability), or specifically the primary, genre-indiscriminate chart for a country, such as the Billboard 100 or UK singles chart? Mach61 02:54, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The former. Chubbles (talk) 06:31, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination of The Show (band) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article The Show (band) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Show (band) (2nd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

QuietHere (talk | contributions) 05:22, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AfD has been relisted twice, and is ineligible for soft deletion, so participation would be especially appreciated so that it doesn't end up with no consensus. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 05:23, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Randy Barlow

Randy Barlow supposedly died in 2020, but the only source cited was Saving Country Music, a self-published blog listed as unreliable on Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Sources. I have not found an obituary or any third-party source corroborating his death, just his personal Facebook (not a verified one) and a couple of Web forums. What should be done here? Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 17:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TenPoundHammer I assume you're talking about this FB account, which is linked to on his official website, and therefore allowable per WP:ABOUTSELF. Mach61 18:15, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mach61: I didn't even see that one when I searched, just this obviously personal account. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 18:27, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mach61: the problem is even on the official fan club page, I don't see any direct acknowledgement of his date of death. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 18:55, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There clearly is in this post Mach61 23:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ideally we're looking for a source that isn't a fansite or social media post... Sergecross73 msg me 23:28, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sergecross73: I'm just gobsmacked that there's literally nothing at all. I've seen plenty of acts on his level of obscurity who get at least something from like, Billboard or Rolling Stone. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 03:23, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposing a non-English language Taskforce

I think it would be beneficial as most articles created are songs in English, I myself have recently been creating some non-English song pages such as Ritmu and Krive karte. The closest WikiProject would probably be Wikipedia:WikiProject Music/Regional and national music taskforce but that is more for music genres as opposed to songs or Wikipedia:WikiProject Latin music but they are quite strict on what is considered e.g. a song described as reggaeton can only be listed under Wikipedia:WikiProject Latin music/Reggaeton if it is is in Spanish or Portuguese. It might be better to also exclude Latin music from the project to avoid duplication. There would be also have to be a guideline on what songs are listed in this taskforce as many songs are in English and another language. (I initially proposed this on the talk page of WikiProject Songs but decided to move it here.) Sahaib (talk) 09:08, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You should probably described the purpose of the proposed taskforce, i.e. what would the tasks be and why is no one else doing them? Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 12:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Fred Gandt: It would probably be about creating more articles and improving existing ones. This can be done by looking at music charts in different countries or song articles on wikipedias in different languages. For example over a billion people speak Chinese, yet there is very few articles in Category:Songs in Chinese. There are people creating these kinds of pages usually because of Eurovision or K-pop, but I suppose the reason why they are not created as often is because it takes longer to translate sources and less people are interested in creating songs that they may have never heard of before. Sahaib (talk) 16:17, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be frank because I have to be right now; there will always be more coverage of subjects easily accessible to an English-speaking audience on English Wikipedia, for two main reasons: 1) because the volunteers are working in English, sure, but also the uncomfortable truth, 2) because people are not as open minded and adventurous as those who are might like them to be. There's wonderful music being created and released all over the world right now, in practically every living language, and probably a few dead ones, and yet turn on the English TV or radio and what will you hear? Exactly. Point #2 is really the problem, but it's kinda depressing so let's think more about point #1; creating, expanding or even just maintaining articles about subjects that have the majority of their interest outside an English-speaking audience is significantly more work (I know from experience working on Gacharic Spin (Japanese rock band) and "The Partisan" (involved some French, German and Russian research and sources)). I think you'll find volunteers do these things because they are in some way personally interested, and a taskforce isn't going to encourage them at all. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the biggest hurdle is, as you indicate you understand, working in multiple languages; that's not a music article problem; that's a Wikipedia problem, probably best solved by first getting the subject covered in its native language by native speakers (and don't discount the importance of cultural understanding) where possible, then working to import it as a translation (see WikiProject Intertranswiki), but might I suggest, rather than proposing anything like a taskforce, first clearly defining the problem somewhere, then ask around for interested users to share their thoughts with an aim to maybe get some momentum going in the rough direction of a possible concerted effort? Even if a small working group and some decent essays were all that came of it, that might prove substantially more productive than a dead taskforce. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 01:35, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I technically have no objection, but I'd wait and see if you get much interest before sinking too much work into setting it up. It can be difficult to find editors to maintain task forces. Task forces themselves don't necessarily create interest in a topic, they just create an environment where people can collaborate on it together. Many don't really go anywhere because there's no one interested, willing, and able to do the work. Honestly, it can be difficult to even have well-functioning WP:Wikiprojects, which have much broader appeal. WP:ALBUMS and WP:VG are generally pretty active, but most others are relatively quiet. Sergecross73 msg me 16:26, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User changing release dates en masse using OR justification

Heads up: User:Ray1983a (contribs) is applying the WP:OR that release dates must be a Monday (e.g. these edits with summaries: After the War (Gary Moore album) "release date must be on Monday" and Red (King Crimson album) "...6 Oct 74 was a Sunday, which makes it an impossible release date"; both reverted), and changing release dates in many articles even when good cited sources in use disagree. I attempted a nice talk about it yesterday, but was ignored, so have warned today. More eyes on if you have some time please (I am not well). Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 01:04, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wasn't Tuesday the time records released in the physical era anyhow? Mach61 01:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, not in Britain. The default release date changed during the 1980s from Fridays to Mondays in the UK. This was a gradual proces, as not all recordlabels made the change at the same time. (further examples and explanation on my Talk page). It was only in recent years that the change went back to Fridays as Global release day was introduced.

Tuesday became the standardized release date in the US, from 1989 onwards. Before that, albums in the US could be released on any given weekday, but not in the weekend. That didn't happen.

Therefor, if a online magazine reports an album was released on a Saturday or a Sunday, in the case of King Crimson, it is necessarily an error on their part. Ray1983a (talk) 15:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ray1983a but you can't just say it's "necessarily" wrong without having reliable sources that back up that information. As you've been told, your edit is based on original research, and that means that the edit is wrong regardless of what personal knowledge you have that you claim supports it. This is just how Wikipedia works, and the rules won't be bent for you. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 17:08, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I realise that it's slightly Original research, but it's no wild guess. Ofcourse I use sources when available, no question. But we also have a policy of 'Context Matters', and be critical of sources. citogenesis can be a cause for wrong release dates. If an album is claimed to have been released on a Sunday, Christmas- or New years' Day, we can easily discard that, because we know from a ton of evidence that that is not how the Record industry works Ray1983a (talk) 22:05, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ray1983a Crazier things happen than off-scheduled releases (The Black Album, for example, released on Friday when Tuesday was standard). A source's date isn't necessarily wrong. Mach61 20:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree--unless a reliable source lists an exact release date, treat this as the trivia that it is and just use the year. Enough of this "albums were released on Monday and the Records Wow! print schedule was a week ahead, aside from the double issues in the summers of 1982 and 1983, and don't forget the publishers' strike in 1979 and..." Caro7200 (talk) 17:39, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ray1983a: your "slightly Original research" comment is an indication of the problem; this isn't a discussion; there is a Wikipedia policy you may or may not have read that outlines exactly what is regarded as original research and that it is not acceptable. All statements must be verifiable and accompanied by the reliable sources from which the summary of that information is derived. There is no "slightly [, but...]"; policies allow slight leeway for simple maths and other trivial reasoning where the results are not synthesis or in direct disagreement with reliable sources without expanded explanation and further sources, but stating that the release date of a record is different than the date stated by reliable sources, because you say so, is absolutely not acceptable. All this is clearly outlined in the policies and guidelines and should not need to be constantly repeated; either abide by the established policies or you will be blocked from editing. If you want to change the policies, you could try presenting your case at the village pump.

P.S. thank you to our fellow editors for their input <3 Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 12:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understand this, but typically these erroneuos dates are given without any source to begin with. Somebody just put it there, and nobody questioned it. I guarentee you that this '6 Oct 74' date for King Crimson is a wiki-original. It came out of nowhere, but then was picked up by others online from wikipedia Ray1983a (talk) 15:05, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If a date is unsourced then you can tag it with {{cn}} or look for a source yourself, and if you can't find it yourself then remove it. If someone else added it based on their own OR then they were also breaking the rules, but that doesn't justify you doing the same. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 15:13, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, clear Ray1983a (talk) 15:51, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ray1983a: I'm pleased you appear to see the way forward. Will you be putting right all the original research you've already published? Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 00:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ray1983a please answer my question. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 02:03, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've been scanning through my contributions list, but almost everything is sourced. I hardly used any original research to begin with Ray1983a (talk) 02:52, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Access to Oricon charts

Hello everyone,

I just want to ask if someone of you have access to the Oricon chart rankings to have a view on the Single Charts as Oricon only displays the first 50 positions for free. I want to know if Elfensjón has charted with their single "Umbra" (they are not in the top 50. Can someone with access help me out? Thank you. --Goroth (talk) 15:30, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Deprecation of totals in Template:Infobox awards list

Hello! We would appreciate your input at this discussion concerning whether totals (|wins=, |nominations=, and |honours=) should be removed from {{infobox awards list}}. Best, House Blaster (talk • he/they) 17:23, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious Luxury

I don't know what's going on with Dubious Luxury. It's been unsourced and hasn't even had a tracklist since 2011. I only get 130 hits for it and the Amazon page for it gives me a 404 (I've never seen Amazon give me a 404 before). Anyone better versed in this genre of music able to shed some light on this one? Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 03:37, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It certainly exists, and is by a notable artist (he's the frontman of Soul Coughing), but I see no reason why this should be regarded as remotely notable. I will redirect it to the artist. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 04:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion on the reliability of numetalagenda.com and Holiday Kirk

There is a discussion about the reliability of numetalagenda.com on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, feedback from anyone with subject area knowledge would be appreciated. See WP:RSN#numetalagenda.com. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:13, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination of Feli Ferraro for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Feli Ferraro is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Feli Ferraro (2nd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Previous AfD ended in soft deletion so the article is ineligible for another, and I know nobody likes a no consensus close. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 18:22, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfC at One Direction

There is currently an RfC at Talk:One_Direction#RfC:_Band_status_and_members_in_the_infobox, about whether the band should be described in the past tense. Please participate if interested. Thanks. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:47, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Request for guidance on creating an article

I’m a professional bluegrass musician with a body of work that includes a forthcoming album release (featuring several notable musicians who have extant articles), other collaborations with established artists, and media coverage in various outlets. I believe I meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines and would like to request the creation of a Wikipedia page to document my career thus far. I know everyone has a hundred things on their to-do lists, but any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated (do I just keep on truckin' until I establish more and more notability?). Here are some reliable sources that cover my work:

https://bluegrasstoday.com/rudy-lyle-the-unsung-hero-of-the-five-string-banjo-interview-with-the-author/

https://americana-uk.com/book-review-max-wareham-rudy-lyle-the-unsung-hero-of-the-five-string-banjo

https://bluegrasstoday.com/peter-rowan-talks-calling-you-from-my-mountain-his-new-bluegrass-record/

https://www.discogs.com/artist/10129009-Max-Wareham

Thank you for any help!

Sincerely, Max Wareham Maxwareham (talk) 17:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Symphony of Heaven notability

I am not sure about the quality of the cited sources other than that MetalOnSlaught seems to be closer to a blog. IndieVisionMusic or whatever it is, I'm not sure. Could you people comment ont he sources used in that article and if this band that started in 2017 could be notable before I send it to AfD? Graywalls (talk) 03:52, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Film Music Reporter

I have started a discussion about the reliability of this website, which is widely used in articles that fall within the scope of this WikiProject, at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Film Music Reporter. All thoughts are welcome. My hope is to come to a definitive consensus on the matter which can be recorded at WP:RS/PS. - adamstom97 (talk) 09:51, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination of New York Music Awards for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article New York Music Awards is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/New York Music Awards until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Mach61 04:06, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Creation of "Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs/Albums of All Time" Categories

I have proposed the creation of two categories, one for Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time and one for Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time. I was told that, given the scope of this endeavor (given that there are 600+ articles that would fall into each category), I should post here to discuss it further. (I'll also link to the Articles for Creation/Categories page here so you can see the discussion there as well – specifically linking my requests here: Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Categories#Category request: Category:Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time inclusions)

One of the editors on the AfC page pointed out that it was surprising that there was not already a category for RS's 500 Albums/Songs. I agreed with them, but it also made me wonder if there is a specific reason why there are no equivalent categories for these albums and songs already; has this been an idea that was rejected in the past? If not, and if there is no pushback against the creation of these categories, I would love to see it happen and get some help with page categorization! :)

BTW, if anyone does have any issue with this, I am also open to hearing reasons why this may not be an appropriate category to pursue creating. Afddiary (talk) 16:23, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-project-member comment) As a person who commented on the AfC/C page, I do endorse the idea of this category if there is no opposition. I am also ready in assisting of adding the categories using AWB if the idea is accepted. ~/Bunnypranav:<ping> 16:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really feel strongly either way, but it feels like there could be a valid argument that making a websites top list isn't really a WP:DEFINING characteristic... Sergecross73 msg me 17:50, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also don't have a particularly strong opinion, and was leaning towards accepting the request originally. However, I can't find other examples of similar categories, which makes me question whether it is WP:DEFINING enough. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 00:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And if it is a defining characteristic, whether we should make categories for other (popular) best of all time lists. And if we shouldn't, why should it only be Rolling Stone? AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 02:31, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a problem with other "best of all time lists" having categories. In fact, if categories are created for Rolling Stone's lists, I'd argue it would be appropriate to create categories for the others as well. I understand there are a few similar lists of "greatest" songs and albums, including (but definitely not limited to):

NME's The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time
1001 Albums You Must Hear Before You Die
1,000 Recordings to Hear Before You Die
The Pitchfork 500
(VH1 has a list of 100 greatest hard rock songs of all time (mentioned on the pages of each song, including its #1 entry "Welcome to the Jungle", but their list does not have a Wikipedia page.)

The reason I was surprised about the lack of categorization for the RS lists is because of how much attention RS's lists receive in the media (well, at least western media, from my perspective). However, despite the fact that I have long been aware of several other lists, the comparative amount of press and attention I see RS's lists receiving definitely eclipses what I see the other lists receiving. I don't really see the other lists as part of a cultural conversation around musical reception in the same way, although to be fair, that could be because RS repeatedly updates their lists, automatically forcing them to remain a part of musical conversations as each update gets released every few years. (I know the 1001 Albums list technically receives occasional updates as well, but I don't see its updates getting the same amount of press.)

I can also understand the argument that inclusion on the list isn't really a defining characteristic of each song (per Wikipedia:Defining). I don't know if RS's lists' level of notoriety works in favor of creating categories for them, but I did figure I'd mention it; however, looking over WP:DEFINING again, I'm wondering if it might be more appropriate to create an article containing a full list of each edition, instead of categories. As it stands, neither RS 500GOAT article contains a full list; the "Songs" article contains the top 10, and the "Albums" article contains no lists at all, although it contains statistics.

For whatever it is worth, the only place on Wikipedia where I've found a list has been the WikiProject dedicated to ensuring each of RS's 500 greatest songs has GA/FA status (as well as an equivalent WikiProject list for the 500 greatest albums – and I feel it is worth mentioning that each list only contains the most recently updated edition of each list, rather than the lists' original 2003/2004/2010/2012 iterations). Afddiary (talk) 22:15, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We would need to make sure creating an article with the full list is not a copyright violation. I vaguely remember that it may be, but I could be wrong. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 22:36, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm frequently reminding people of this. We should not be replicating other websites lists verbatim like that. If people want to read a Rolling Stone list, they should be going to their website, not Wikipedia. Sergecross73 msg me 23:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject for History of Music?

I searched the directories for wikiprojects: music and found nothing related to history of music. I also searched in the directories for History. If such a project does not exist, should we not create one? Sneakers McSnuggles (talk) 12:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that having WikiProjects focused on different parts of music history (e.g., ones for opera, American music, drum corps, etc.) is a better way to do it than something broad like all of music history. Unfortunately, outside of maybe four large ones, most music WikiProjects are underutilized as it is, so creating an entirely new one to divvy attention may not be the greatest strategy. Why? I Ask (talk) 13:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sneakers McSnuggles I did some research, and it appears that "History of <topic>" WikiProjects have a poor track record of success. WP:WikiProject History of science is still active, but other such projects are usually merged into the "parent topic" (e.g. History of Greece) or become inactive with time (e.g. History of Biology, History of Canada). Mach61 13:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]