Wikipedia talk:Notability (astronomical objects)

Geologic features

I thought this edit would be uncontroversial, but it was reverted so I'm starting a discussion here.

The notability guideline specifically states that it applies to astronomical objects, and the 'scope' section gives some examples of what does and doesn't fall into that class (the list of examples was mostly in place in 2011, with only minor revisions since). It does not specifically mention geologic features on Solar System bodies (craters, mountains etc., see lists of geological features of the Solar System), though it seems clear to me that those are not 'objects' so are implicitly excluded. I think we should make that explicit, as it appears that isn't universally understood. Extraterrestrial geologic features are instead subject to WP:GNG, while those on Earth are covered by WP:GEOLAND. Does anyone object? Modest Genius ^talk 08:21, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Fine by me. Primefac (talk) 08:26, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Support: it's a bit of a pedantic point, but I'm okay with the change. Praemonitus (talk) 17:29, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Support if it's made clear that such topics are subject to GNG only. JoelleJay (talk) 22:28, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Oppose and prefer the status quo of articles on named features, such as named craters on the Moon, Mercury, and elsewhere, remaining safe and not subject to mass deletion (this change could easily be misunderstood to mean that hundreds of named crater articles would no longer be of notable topics). This seems at first glance to be a simple change but it could end up to be a profound one, especially if someone takes it to mind to use it to delete many hundreds of named crater pages (in which case the revert seems justified and better for the encyclopedia). Randy Kryn (talk) 03:18, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow your logic. This guideline does not "protect" articles from a mass delete. Praemonitus (talk) 04:24, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Off topic

I would also argue that these pages will not necessarily be deleted; I've been slowly converting a lot of these sub-stubs into redirects to the main crater list articles; since the information is already in the table, there really isn't any information lost (other than pretty pictures). Primefac (talk) 08:43, 27 October 2022 (UTC) Primefac, I'd ask you to stop deleting crater articles, didn't know you were doing that. Not as much pretty pictures but encyclopedic pictures of the craters, images which define the topic and focus attention on the individual geological feature. How many have you done (I don't have more than a few on my watch list)? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:49, 27 October 2022 (UTC) About 60 from A-C (the As are on the "older" page). I will reiterate, I am not deleting them; I am redirecting them to the list article where the exact same information is present, and where there is often only one reference to a database entry. At current, they all fail GNG. If you want to improve them, by all means go for it, but if you revert simply for the sake of reverting I will waste everyone's time and send them all to AFD to formally get them redirected. Primefac (talk) 11:04, 27 October 2022 (UTC) A redirect is a delete of a full article, just redirected. Doing this to crater pages doesn't help the encyclopedia but in my opinion harms it. I'm not going to have you do a long term AfD series over this but will respectfully ask that you consider stopping those redirects of named craters. That change really isn't needed and does little more than remove long-term pages from main space. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:14, 27 October 2022 (UTC) If a page does not meet GNG, it should not be kept; redirection at least allows for editors to have a platform to expand should there be a future opportunity. I will (out of courtesy) temporarily stop redirecting these pages, but so far there is no indication that a sub-stub referenced to a single database entry meets GNG, which means that it should not be kept, so eventually I will restart if the consensus on this does not change. Primefac (talk) 11:23, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

What to do with existing crater articles is an entirely different discussion, which is already underway at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomy#Notability for Martian craters. Please discuss it there instead. I'm not proposing making any change to the scope of this guideline - just making the phrasing clearer. It already doesn't apply to craters. Modest Genius ^talk 11:38, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

And what about incorporating those features into this guideline? Cambalachero (talk) 17:22, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

If you disregard the Moon, only one of the current criteria would work properly with this class of features, so there's no benefit in a merger. WP:GNG works just as well. Praemonitus (talk) 01:32, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

A guideline for planetary features would be within the purview of WP:SOLAR, not WP:AST. That project seems to be inactive, so is in no position to develop a new notability guideline. Modest Genius ^talk 11:38, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

You could have made this an RfC. Everyone needs to know about this update. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:00, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

If the local project (WP:AST) finds their own guideline uncontroversial, then there is no need for an RFC to change it. Primefac (talk) 09:16, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

It has been a week and consensus seems clear. Could an uninvolved user close this discussion and assess the outcome? Modest Genius ^talk 12:47, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm involved, but it's a clear result, so I restored your version. Primefac (talk) 13:02, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Eclipses

I just found Template:Solar eclipses, which lists hundreds of past and future eclipses, a large number of which surely have no significant coverage in RS? I would surely think that a mass merge into e.g. List of partial solar eclipses would be better than an inordinate number of articles like Solar eclipse of October 4, 2051, Solar eclipse of August 31, 1970, etc. See WP:PAGEDECIDE. I'm aware this guideline is about astronomical objects, but it seemed the most relevant talk page for my purposes. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:47, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I concur, but see this discussion on my user talk; it will be an uphill battle to merge or delete many of these pages. Primefac (talk) 21:16, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes I agree, but only for historical solar eclipses. Many of these eclipse articles just present paragraphs of boilerplate information. If there is no historical record or eclipse expedition published then it likely isn't notable. Future eclipses require a different criteria, such as whether the shadow passes over populated land masses. Praemonitus (talk) 15:59, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Most of the articles on future eclipses are just stubs that will mostly remain stubs even after the event. I agree with the above comments that only notable (described in multiple sources, etc etc) eclipses should have separate articles, though I'm impressed by the enthusiastic editor(s) who created all these articles and maps for them. Artem.G (talk) 19:52, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Rewrite nutshell

I think that the "nutshell" part could be rewritten to something more accurate, such as

InTheAstronomy32 (talk) 21:56, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

The current statement is accurate. I'm starting to think the word 'presumed' is being abused. It just means it's likely to be notable, but it's still subject to the same requirement to satisfy WP:GNG. Praemonitus (talk) 22:47, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think "presumed" may be a poor word choice. One of the most common uses of this word in the US is in the phrase "presumed innocent" which means innocent unless proved otherwise. So "presumed to be notable" could be interpreted as meaning notable unless proven not notable, which suggests normal notability requirements might not apply. PopePompus (talk) 23:01, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I have no fundamental objection to simplifying that nutshell, but the suggested wording is duplicative, because coverage in reliable independent sources is criterion 3. And if you remove that, it becomes uselessly short. Regarding 'presumed', that word has been there since this page became a guideline in 2011. Modest Genius ^talk 13:21, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the same word has been used in several other topical notability guides. Some of those "nutshell" statements are quite a bit longer than this one. Praemonitus (talk) 14:05, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

"In a nutshell" means an explanation in a few words. An explanation that is basically "read the page for the information", without even trying to make a summary, is useless as a "in a nutshell" explanation and adds nothing. Cambalachero (talk) 04:55, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Naked eye visibility

Editor ​Danbloch removed the following sentence,

Beware that stars fainter than magnitude 5.0 often lack significant coverage, and thus may not satisfy WP:GNG

with the remark that, "remove misleading text in note. GNG isn't relevant in this case". The lead paragraph of this guideline says that this, "is a subject-specific supplement to the general notability guideline". Hence, it does not override the GNG. To say an article is "presumed notable" does not negate the requirement to satisfy the GNG.

I've found many (fainter) stars visible to the naked to lack notability. If the warning is considered misleading, then the lowest magnitude should be changed to 5.0. Praemonitus (talk) 04:10, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Editor ​David Eppstein reverted with the comment:

"if your interpretation were correct, there would be no point in listing any criteria other than criterion #3, and no point in having an SNG at all"

I disgree with your interpretation, because overriding WP:GNG is not the point of a SNG. Compare, for example, the WP:NFILM guide. It's criteria includes the following paragraph:

These criteria below are presented as rules of thumb for easily identifying films that Wikipedia should probably have articles about. In almost all cases, a thorough search for independent, third-party reliable sources will be successful for a film meeting one or more of these criteria. However, meeting these criteria is not an absolute guarantee that Wikipedia should have a separate, stand-alone article entirely dedicated to the film.

I believe we should provide that level of clarity. Praemonitus (talk) 13:23, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Different SNGs have different purposes. Some override GNG. Some strengthen GNG. Some defer to GNG and merely provide guidance for what sorts of things might pass. Which kind is this? My reading of it is to override GNG in a limited way – to provide automatic notability for all stars up to magnitude 5.0 – and to defer to GNG for anything fainter. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

No I don't see it as an override of WP:GNG: articles passing through WP:AfD still need to satisfy GNG, so there wouldn't be any benefit. It's more of a guide to astronomical objects that are more likely to be notable (and less likely to be sent to WP:AfD). That way editors will hopefully spend time more productively on this class of object. The word "presumed" was never meant to indicate an automatic override of GNG; it just indicates a high likelihood. Praemonitus (talk) 01:30, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

When you say "articles passing through WP:AfD still need to satisfy GNG, so there wouldn't be any benefit" is that intended to be a repetition of your opinion that it is not an override of GNG, or as a reason why you hold that opinion? Because as a reason, it is circular: you are saying it does not override GNG because it does not override GNG. Going to AfD does not make any difference to what notability criterion is applicable; AfD participants can and regularly do handle cases where notability is determined for reasons independent of GNG (for example WP:NSPECIES despite that not being an official guideline) or where GNG is insufficient and notability demands a higher bar (for example WP:NCORP). —David Eppstein (talk) 01:47, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough. But I see nothing in the guide that overrides the GNG. We aren't providing any criteria about when an article shouldn't be written (beyond the GNG); only when it is likely to be notable. Praemonitus (talk) 03:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Is there a difference? —David Eppstein (talk) 06:31, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

At this point I'm not even sure what we're arguing about. The removed comment was just a guide concerning the likelihood of notability for very faint naked eye stars. I'm still not clear why it was necessary to have it removed. Praemonitus (talk) 14:41, 24 June 2024 (UTC)