Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2006 July 30

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WikiLibel

I removed an entry on a talk page a couple of months ago because it libelled someone. It's only just occurred to me that - under UK law at least - the libel is still present because anyone could read the offending entry by looking at the history of the talk page or by clicking here [[1]]. As such, the defamatory material is still being published and the person in question could, in theory, sue Wikipedia for an awful lot of money if she stumbled upon the page in question. Unlikely, yes - but is this a risk Wikipedia decides to take or is there a legal loophole here? Ericatom 00:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

In circumstances like this it is possible to delete specific parts of a page history. Can't remember whether admins can do this (I certainly never have) - it may be a bureaucrat-only capability. But it is possible. Grutness...wha? 01:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It will take more than just deleting the entire talk page and restoring all but the original edit. As I just found out. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 01:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Deleting revisions is a feature supported in the MediaWiki software, and is called Oversight (policy for using the feature, and a list of the very small number of users with Oversight permission, can be found at the link). --MCB 05:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

And then there are loads of copies of Wikipedia articles all over the Internet. Who is responsible for any inaccuracies there? DirkvdM 07:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

In the case of copies of Wikpedia articles copied by another website, the publisher of that other website is responsible (again, under UK law). Should I report the Elliott Smith thing to an administrator? How should I go about doing that? Ericatom 11:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

This stuff gives me a headache, but the Wikipedia:Libel policy and Wikipedia:Requests for administrator attention should help. (The Elliott Smith article is up for FA status right now, by the way, so that may make this more important.) --Galaxiaad 18:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Fastest Military Aircraft?

Which plane currently in service/use (2006) is the fastest (in the world)?

Official or theoretical Black project? The fastest manned object is the space shuttle, the Concorde was the fastest civilian plane, and the SR-71 Blackbird was the fastest used military plane ever. --mboverload@ 01:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Hehe, I saw you bolded the currently in service/use part. I saw it =D. I thought it would be easy, but I had no luck finding the fastest one currently in use. --mboverload@ 01:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The first google hit for fastest aircraft gives a list. Now your turn to check which ones are still in service :-) Weregerbil 17:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, an any additions to air speed record you find be sure to update the article. Weregerbil 17:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

So probably the MiG-31 unless some MiG-25's are still flying. Rmhermen 18:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Puzzle

hi,

Can any one pls tell me the how to find the 13th item in the room.( thr r totally 13 items to get out of the room). The link is of the puzzle is g http://www.fasco-csc.com/works/crimson/crimson_e.php.

Please do not post your questions on more than one reference desk as this could waste volunteers' time in trying to answer an already answered question. I have removed your duplicated question from the Mathematics desk. Road Wizard 02:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

http://www.phoons.com/games/crimson.html -- SGBailey 09:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

And another solution. – b_jonas 22:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

User Page Template

I'm new to Wikipedia, and I'd like to make a User Page for myself. I've read though the entry on User Pages, and I understand what I can and cannot have on on my User Page. However, being new, I'm having trouble creating articles from scratch. I'd like to know if there is a template I could use and edit so my User Page would meet quality standards and help me get a better grasp on how to edit Wiki pages. Failing that, is it reasonable to use another user's page as a template? If that's ok, should I cite them as a template source? Sorry for all the questions, and thank you very much in advace for the assistance : ) Teh Janitor 03:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Seems fine to me. I also looked at other people's user pages to see what I could put on mine and then copied parts of the source. As long as the contents are changed I don't see how anyone could object. If you really copy someone's style you might point that out as a friendly gesture, but I don't think that's necessary. Then again, I don't know what precisely you have in mind. Nice user name, by the way. :) DirkvdM 07:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I greatly apperciate the help :) And thanks for the compliment! --Teh Janitor 07:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

What I did (when laying out my first proper user page, I've since tweaked it and made it more personalised) was have a search around the user pages of some of the members of Esperanza; they have (or rather had, it's now spun off) a Trading Spaces programme where users improve other users pages, so there's a lot of high quality examples to check out. Of course, you could always sign up for the programme and let someone else do the hard work for you. --Daduzi ^talk 04:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Graphical modification of existing product images

Hi,

if I take an existing picture of a product (e.g. RAID) and I modify it so it reads something different (e.g. RAIDYMILK) but keep the graphism of the original bottle, and modify the print (e.g. it reads "The wiki milk for admins" instead of "Insect Killer") for a prank, what is the legal risk, knowing that this article would be a joke and would not be in any shape or form created for a bad publicity for Johnson & Johnson ? Fabwash 03:11, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

We don't give legal advice here, and such a picture wouldn't belong on Wikipedia. If you put it on your own website, it might or might not be considered parody.-gadfium 04:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Question on editing the Marka Ragnos Picture

I found a picture of the Sith Lord of Marka Ragnos to put on the Marka Ragnos article that doesn't have one, but when I put in the correct HTML tags, and/or the Embedded Image, it never works, can you please help me.

Marka Ragnos Site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marka_Ragnos

Maraka Ragnos Picture Sight:

http://www.dmeb2.org/fanart/3dimages/shadowofmarkragnos_alch_tmb.jpg

• This is a copyright image (see http://www.dmeb2.org/fanart/). Notinasnaid 19:39, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Dairy products

Who was the first person who made cheese from milk? and when?

Thanks very much for your possible answers, as I cannot do that for my daughter

Oh, cheese is WAY older than you think =D. See Cheese#Origins --mboverload@ 05:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

How can you know what people think? :) DirkvdM 07:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

People he/she assumed they had a name --mboverload@ 09:34, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

You pretty much refuted your own statement. We had to domesticate cows (or some animal) first. That happened just thousands of years ago. And we had to eat before that. Humans evolved millions of years ago. So it's a relatively recent food. DirkvdM 07:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

There you go. People who sit in front of the telly all day, stuffing their faces with packaged food are incapable of seeing the broader picture. :) DirkvdM 07:21, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I heard something about cheese first occuring when milk was stored for transportation in skins made from animal stomachs. The natural rennet in the stomach would have then began to separate curds from whey and all that, and considering some estimates of humans settling down (12,000-10,000 years ago, from what I've heard) and how certain it is that as soon as milk began to be transported it would be done so in stomachs, the first "cheese" probably occured about ten thousand + years ago. I think. So I don't think there's really a "who" or even a which culture that we'd know about having first made cheese. Blue cheeses as we know them are relatively recent, because they began being produced after the advent of penecillin (sp?), which is still the most common molding agent injected into blue cheeses. Sashafklein 09:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I think blue cheeses are far older than the discovery of Penicillan - you don't need to know what you're encouraging to grow to make the veins, most probably the process was discovered by trial and error. See the Roquefort article for an appropriate legend - a shepherd forgot his lunch in a cave and the rest is history. Not also Pliny praising the local cheeses in 79 AD. Lisiate 03:10, 1 August 2006 (UTC).

Non-physical cultural heritage

How many non-physical cultural heritages in Vietnam have been acknowledged/recognized by UNESCO so far?

Thank you for your valuable answers—Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.234.138.64 (talk • contribs)

Two, according to the article Masterpieces of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity. The Nha nhac, a type of Vietnamese classical music and dance, and the 2005 entry was the space of gong culture in the Central Highlands of Vietnam. The candidates for 2007 include quan ho singing style and the ca tru festival tradition, according to the references in the article. -- Graham talk 12:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

70's Interior Design

Y'know that wood paneling that they loved to use in the 70's and early 80s for rec rooms and such? Yeeeeah, anyone know what that's called?

Wood grain?--Jamesino 20:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It's just called wood paneling, what else would it be called ? StuRat 23:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Tacky! That's what.

Petite vs. Teenybopper

Are Petite and Teenybopper the same?

I don't think so —Minun ^Spiderman 14:18, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Petite is a French verb meaning "small". A teenybopper is a stereotypical western teenager. Click on the links.--Shantavira 18:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Petit(e) is an adjective in French, not a verb. David Sneek 19:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes? Who said it was a verb? User:Zoe|^(talk) 21:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, since you asked, Shantavira did. But that's ok, nobody's perfect. JackofOz 23:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Gaa. I looked for that, and couldn't find it. My eyes are starting to fail me. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

In response to Shantavira, I thought teenybopper referred to 50s era teenagers? I don't think it's used very much to refer to modern teenagers, and I think the description 'Western' (which I realise is in the article, which is itself not very good IMO but that's another discussion) is a little too broad, as IMO the term was only used for English-language teens, and perhaps only US/UK/Canada. Or maybe just US/Canada, lol.--Anchoress 05:34, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes of course petite is an adjective, not a verb. Sorry. FWIW, the OED puts the first recorded usage of tennybopper in 1966, in Australia, and I think it's worth quoting: A girl in her teens or younger, esp. one who is a fan of pop music and follows the latest fashions.

1966 Telegraph (Austral.) 12 Oct. 58/3 The teenybopper is aptly named because her two distinguishing features are her teeny size and her cool boppy with-it attitude to life.--Shantavira 07:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Whew, was I wrong! I'd better get on the trolley.--Anchoress 10:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Dragon Flies vs Pine trees

We live in Michigan and are having a problem with dragon flies this year. They are sucking the water or nutrients out of the new growth on our pine trees and maple trees. For example: the dragon flies sit on top of the new pinetree leaders and suck out the water or nutrients and within a week the leaders begin to turn brown and die. They are also doing the same thing to the new growth on our maple trees.

We have tries using insect sprays, but they do not bother the dragon flies. Any suggtestions as to how to keep the dragon flies off of our trees. We have about 50 trees we are concerned about?

I would not worry about the dragonflies they are predators and eat other insects, not trees. Not sure what is killing your pine trees though. --Sherool (talk) 16:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. Dragonflies are your friend, unless you really really like mosquitoes. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:18, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

How do you know the dragonflies are causing this and did this start happening before or after you started spraying? And how many dragonflies are there anyway? A tree weighs a tonne (or something). Much smaller plants can survive an aphid infestation. Surely a maple tree can handle some dragonflies. DirkvdM 07:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't have to work at all, I'd fool around and have a ball?

There's a Japanese reality TV show called "The Legend of Gold" (ja:いきなり!黄金伝説。) which regularly holds a ¥10,000 (US$87) for a month contest. They would hire four celebrities, send them to an apartment, and give each of them ¥10,000 as a month's fees for foods and utilities. The one who keeps most money at the end of the months wins.

I wonder if is it possible for a person to spend 100 million yen (or about $870,000) a month on foods. You cannot buy anything other than foods and reasonable food-related items. You cannot waste your foods. You have to pay reasonable money for your foods. If the dealer gives you a volume discount, you have to accept it. You have to eat most of your foods by yourself. You cannot buy ingredients developed for biological purposes (e.g. a clone sheep with a sky high price tag; a single cell made by artificially synthesized DNA; ...). You cannot buy ingredients made for scientific purposes (e.g. salt consisted of unstable isotopes of sodium and chlorine; see isotopes of sodium and isotopes of chlorine). You cannot burn diamonds to roast your marshmallow. You cannot pay Bill Gates $869,998 and have him fetch you a $2 soda. ...

So far the most expensive food I've found are 7 bottles of 1978 red wine auctioned for $167,500, or $23,929 per bottle in 2001.[2] There are more expensive wines but these 18th century wines are not drinkable. I think you can stir fry lots of highest quality saffron and truffles, but these things are simply dirt cheap if you have $29,000 a day to burn.

So how do I spend 100 million yen a month on food? -- Toytoy 17:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

One word: restaurants. It's easy to spend $300 on food (e.g. at kobe beef steak houses in Tokyo), but the wine list is where the real action is, since a top restaurant might multiply the retail price by 6 or more, and readily available wine retails for as much as $5000. Apparently Walnut Creek restaurant has an imperial (big) bottle of 1975 Chateau Petrus, for $29,000. Of course, you would die before the month was out. Notinasnaid 19:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Cleopatra was said to have once drunken a pearl dissolved in vinegar - I imagine that would cost quite a bit if you can stomach it. Ziggurat 22:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I thought the pearl was dissolved in wine? But then, the wine of the time probably wasn't that far removed from vinegar. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Cleopatra VII of Egypt#Cleopatra and Mark Antony specifies vinegar. But of course I first heard about it through Asterix and Cleopatra :) Ziggurat 03:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Sequential manual gearbox

Do cars with a seguential manual gearbox have the clutch pedal? More specifically, does the Enzo Ferrari have a clutch pedal?--Jamesino 19:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Using a search engine will tell you pretty quickly that the Enzo Ferrari doesn't have a clutch pedal. For example this image show the two pedals (the four shiny metal things in the photo are: foot rest, brake, accelerator, and reflection of the accelerator).--Commander Keane 00:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, that they list sixteen different possible configurations of the brake and accellerator pedal. If I spent a million dollars on a car, I'd expect a pedal that causes it to dispense margaritas, so perhaps that's one of the combinations!

Image hosting

Where the heck can I find a public, free of charge, non-pornographic image hosting site that accepts photographs of topless women? I've tried Photobucket, Webshots, Flickr and Smugmug, but they all forbid any pictures of women with bare breasts, regardless of the situation. JIP | Talk 20:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

If you compromise by censoring out some of their body parts, you might be able to host it onto Photobucket or other hosting services. --Jamesino 23:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Does National Geographic accept them ? I was of the opinion that they only allowed topless native women in their mags. :-) StuRat 23:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

If they are ARTFUL nudes, DeviantArt with gladly take them. --mboverload@ 03:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if they constitute artful nudes. They are from the World Bodypainting Festival, featuring models in various states of painting. The festival is open for families and children. The women in the photographs are just posing for normal photography, not in some fancy artful poses. I showed some of the photographs to my mother, who has been an amateur photographer for years, and she complimented the quality of the pictures. JIP | Talk 09:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like an epitome of artful nudes, to me. I note that our article on the subject is devoid of images - perhaps you would consider uploading one for us? --Tagishsimon (talk)

I would, but I'm not sure if the festival rules allow that. They say any photographs taken are only for personal use. Here is a detailed FAQ. Does this mean I can upload pictures to Wikipedia or does it mean I can't? JIP | Talk 10:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Were you a registered photographer? Then yes. If not, then I'm not sure. You might, I suppose, have entered into a contract by buying a ticket, under which you agreed to abide by their conditions. I suspect that if you approched them and explained that you wanted to put one or two images onto Wikipedia, they' give you permission. Looks to me like they're trying to dissociate body painting from "erotic" (read pornography) publications, which Wikipedia clearly isn't. Perhaps enclose the images you'd select for us. It would be great to have them. --Tagishsimon (talk)

I don't see anything in the FAQ about personal use. It says that registered photographers can only use pictures for non-commercial purposes, but the only restriction on unregistered photographers seems to be that you aren't allowed to take photographs in a "special area". As I understand it, all Wikipedia content (including the Reference desk and any images here) has to be usable for commercial purposes. So if you're registered, you can't upload images here; if you aren't registered, you can. Which is an odd state of affairs. Henry^Flower 12:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This does indeed sound odd. There were also signs at the festival entrance forbidding commercial use of photographs, and I think I saw something about personal use only, but I'm not sure. As for the "special area", well, everyone is allowed to take pictures of models in that area, but if you're not registered, you can't go in that area yourself. I took pictures through the fence. I was there as a normal visitor, not as a registered photographer. But I think I'll have to ask the festival staff themselves about this. JIP | Talk 12:17, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

They may have some promotional images that they'd allow you to upload... just a thought. Dismas|^(talk) 12:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I asked the staff, and they said it is OK to upload the pictures, as long as I mention it was taken at the festival, and provide a link to it, and it would also be good if I mentioned the artist's name. Trouble is, I don't remember nearly all the artists. The only artists I remember were a couple of Finnish teams and a German team I got acquintated with. JIP | Talk 16:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Wel, put them up; quite possibly someone will be able to reunite the photos with the names in the wikipedia way of things. Good work on contacting the organisers. Looking forward to seeing them. --Tagishsimon (talk)

OK, but how many pictures should I upload? Should I only put pictures normally on the side of the article, or make an image gallery? JIP | Talk 07:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

If the photos are good and distinct, I'd put one or two on the side & a gallery at the foot of the article. --Tagishsimon (talk)

I'm having trouble picking the sidebar images out of the hundreds of model photos I made. Should I go with female models, male models, or both? Every picture in the main body painting article seems to only show female models. Also, the images are 2560×1920 pixels in size, and weigh almost 2 megabytes each. Is this OK, or do I have to shrink them before uploading? JIP | Talk 12:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I uploaded eight pictures, six of bodypainted models and two otherwise from Seeboden. See for yourself. It turns out that Wikipedia automatically makes thumbnail images of the pictures in the articles, and doesn't just resize the originals. Kudos for that. I only know the names of the artists in one picture - in the second female picture, the man is called Olaf and the woman is called Ruth. JIP | Talk 17:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Concerning Allergy (RAST test)

In an allergy test result (RAST test), a number was given after "food allergy" and "anaphylaxis" in the result sheet. What do these numbers mean? I am asking what scale or measurement the numbers are measuring. Thanks. --Proficient 23:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

This suggests that the results "are reported semi-quantitatively as a score or as a category of reactivity to indicate either a negative result or low-, medium-, high- or very high degrees of sensitisation." Were the numbers 0-4? That might correspond to those categories of reactivity. digfarenough (talk) 23:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

No, the numbers were in the hundreds, but thanks for your help. --Proficient 17:17, 31 July 2006 (UTC)