Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 October 8

< October 7	<<Sep \| October \| Nov>>	October 9 >

Humanities

Science

Mathematics

Computing/IT

Language

Miscellaneous

Archives

The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions at one of the pages linked to above.

Latin curses

Hi - there's an excellent WP article on Latin curses but I need some that don't involve profanities - an example I've seen is 'Interfice te Cochleare’ - if anyone can provide a list, I'd be grateful. Thanks. Adambrowne666 05:44, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where is this Latin curses article of which you speak? And isn't any curse a profanity? I think the best curses are those that are imaginative and original.--Shantavira 08:31, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, what I want are insults - Latin insults. And the article as you suggest is Latin profanity. Adambrowne666 08:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some colorful Latin expressions. --hydnjo talk 13:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Hydnjo. Adambrowne666 02:54, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Name pronunciation

What is the proper pronunciation for the surname "Tsai" (phonetically, if possible)? It's common enough that I really should know, but my searching skills are a bit poor today, it seems. Thanks in advance! McMillin24 _contribs^talk 13:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Ts" first (like in "pizza" or "wits"), "ai" rhymes with "fly", I'd guess, like "sigh" but with a t in front. "Ts" is a rather common affricate, but it could be difficult for anglophones, due to it being absent in English... 惑乱分からん 14:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, we're pretty familiar with pizza, though I do notice that when kids shorten "pizza", it's usually "za", not "tsa". So perhaps, indeed, a leading "ts" doesn't come naturally. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:45, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Most anglophones turn "tsunami" into "sunami". JackofOz 20:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! McMillin24 _contribs^talk 15:53, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure, really, but that's what I'd guess it would be pronounced like. From which language does the name originate? 惑乱分からん 16:46, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It looks to be a romanized version of the Mandarin Chinese surname Cai—used in Taiwan. See Cai (surname)#Transliteration and romanization.

Also it appears that the ts affricate would be aspirated, here... 惑乱分からん 11:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

the crucible - english literature

what do you think is the significance of the title "the crucible"?

No homework questions please, despite The Crucible being a brilliant play and all. -- the GREAT Gavini 17:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hint: look up "crucible" in a dictionary. Read Wikipedia's article on The Crucible. Follow up the external links from there if necessary.--Shantavira 17:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We're feeling hard pressed to answer this.Edison 22:00, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Plaque Question

I am trying desperately to find out what two words mean that are inscribed on a plaque my father-in-law has. He received this from a friend of a friend and it's a plaque with the casting of the USS Fulton, the ship he served on in WWII. Can you please help me with a translation or where to go for a translation. I don't know what language it is.

"Servipium Fidelipas"

Thank you so much. Robert Moore [email removed to prevent spam]

Appears to be Latin, but the p looks strange, are you sure it isn't another letter? 惑乱分からん 20:38, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it probably is a typo for "Servitium Fidelitas", and it seems that it literally would mean "faitfulness to slavery" or something like that. Maybe a truer meaning than what was intended... 惑乱分からん 21:08, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We just figured that plaque question out by the skin of our teeth. :-) StuRat 01:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It should probably be interpreted as an asyndeton, thus standing for Servitium & Fidelitas. Literally: "Servitude & Fidelity". The most appropriate English counterpart is perhaps "Service & Faithfulness". --Lambiam ^Talk 06:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Uhmm, it seems to mean "slavery"/"servitude" literally, not "service". (Don't know how to translate "service" in a good manner, though...) 惑乱分からん 11:53, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Standard Written English: Punctuation with Quotation Marks

I have taught high school and college level (American) English for 35 years.

The rules for punctuating with quotation marks in American English were simple to summarize:

1. Periods and commas are always inside the final quotation mark. 2. Colons and semicolons are outside the final quotation mark. 3. The meaning of the sentence determines the placement of question marks and exclamation points.

In the following excerpt from Wikipedia, both American ("BILL,") and British ("musical play",)usage styles are evident.

Does Wikimedia have a style manual?

Excerpt:

Show Boat is a musical in two acts with music by Jerome Kern and book and lyrics by Oscar Hammerstein II (with the notable exception of the song "Bill," which was originally written for Kern in 1918 by P. G. Wodehouse but reworked by Hammerstein for Show Boat, and two songs not by Kern and Hammerstein which are always interpolated into American stage productions of the show - Goodbye, My Lady Love, by Joseph Howard, and After The Ball, by Charles K. Harris).

"Show Boat" is based on a 1926 book of the same name by Edna Ferber, and is generally considered to be the first true American "musical play", as a dramatic form with popular music, separate both from operetta and from the "Follies"-type musical comedies that preceded it.

Yes, the style manual is located at Wikipedia:Manual of Style. Since Show Boat is an American play, American-style conventions should be used exclusively in that article. Hyenaste ^(tell) 20:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the style manual -that isn't what it says about quotations. Rmhermen 00:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a British/American issue. Having a comma inside the quotes suggests the comma is part of the spelling of the name of the song, which is misleading. Punctuation belongs outside the quotes. Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles)# Punctuation: Whether the title is in italics or quotes, punctuation (such as commas) belongs outside the markup, as can be seen in the lists above—the comma is not part of the title. (The name of the book is not Huckleberry Finn,.) JackofOz 00:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Commas and periods always precede closing quotation marks in American style:

"Tom Outland's Story," by Willa Cather, . . . (CMS, 15th ed., 8.187)
"A Canal Boat Journey, 1857," an anonymous manuscript in the Library of Congress Manuscripts Division, describes . . . (Ibid., 8.195)
"Casualties," an episode in The Fortunes of War, a Masterpiece Theater series . . . (Ibid., 8.196)
"Read 'Kubla Khan,'" he told me. (MLA, 2nd ed., 3.9.7) —Wayward ^Talk 04:40, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This seems quite contrary to the MOS. The section I quoted above has no qualifications about local punctuation styles. If the actual intention is that local styles override the basic rule, this needs to be made clear. JackofOz 05:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No one probably cares, but I thought I'd add that I'm an American and I strongly prefer the "British" system in this case. The Jade Knight 07:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Manual of style is very clear. Regarding quotation marks, the local country rules are NOT applicable:

With quotation marks, we split the difference between American and British usage. [...] When punctuating quoted passages, include the punctuation mark inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation mark is part of the quotation ("logical" quotations). Lgriot 09:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Quien Me Iba A Decir

The article translates this as "The One Who Was Going to Say to Me". I'd translate this as "Who Was Going to Tell Me?" Is this an official translation, or OR? User:Zoe|(talk) 22:30, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, "The One Who Was Going to Say to Me" is an awkward translation, like something an online translator would return. Yours is much better, although I've never heard the song and cannot be sure of the context to know the exact meaning. A native Spanish speaker would have to say "quien me lo iba a decir" to make a complete thought, which leads me to think that there is a larger context we should consider before we can make an accurate translation. Does anyone know where we can find the lyrics of this song?--El aprendelenguas 00:31, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

[1] --Maxamegalon2000 04:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I find those translations too literal. A more non-literal (and yet accurate) translation would be, "Who would have thought". You use that expression in English in the same situations as "Quien lo iba a decir" is used in Spanish, although they're not exactly the same "word by word". That's what happens with expressions. --RiseRover|^talk 06:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Would anybody mind if I change the article to a more correct translation? User:Zoe|(talk) 02:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Could also try, "Who was going to tell me?" Barista (talk) 06:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]