Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 October 1

< September 30	<<Sep \| October \| Nov>>	October 2 >

Humanities

Science

Mathematics

Computing/IT

Language

Miscellaneous

Archives

The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions at one of the pages linked to above.

French: Notre

I am having trouble understanding when and when not to add accents to words, like notre, that sometimes have circonflex accents on them. Specifically, could someone explain when "nôtre" is used, and when it is left as just "notre"? Thanks so much ChowderInopa 01:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

use "notre" when you want an adjective, e.g. Notre Dame. In all other cases, use "nôtre".--K.C. Tang 03:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

...and the plural forms are nos and les nôtres respectively. So you have notre livre (our book), nos livres (our books), Quel livre? Le nôtre. (Which book? Ours.) and Quels livres? Les nôtres. (Which books? Ours). -- the GREAT Gavini 06:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

notre = our

le nôtre (cannot be used without the article) = ours

also it is pronounced slightly differently. Lgriot 13:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The former would be pronounced IPA /nɔtʁ/ and the latter /notʁ/. -- the GREAT Gavini 15:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Account Deletion

how to delete my account from this wikipedia?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.9.1 (talk • contribs)

For questions about using Wikipedia itself, you would want to head over to the Help Desk. As far as I know, there is no way to wipe your account off of the face of Wikipedia (since your edits have to be attributed in the history and all that) so I imagine your best bet would be to change your password to something you won't remember and leave forever. There's no real reason to have your account permanently deleted. —K e akealani 08:24, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Or you could tell and admin to indef block you. I'm not sure if that is legal though. Sexual favors could take care of that ;) — X [Mac Davis] (SUPERDESK|Help me improve)08:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Learning a foreign language

How many hours does an adult need to learn a foreign language? Mr.K. 21:20, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on what you call foreign. Where do you live : Panama, Laos or maybe the Central African Republic? I heard English is not that hard.Evilbu 21:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

English is hard for people who know, for example, only Japanese or Turkish. There is a huge variation in how easily people pick up a new language. And a lot depends on the level you want to accomplish: being able to shop for and come home with a pound of onions, or taking part in a debate on the evolution and future of the concept of democracy in a time of mass infotainment. Having said that, assuming you have good study material and also good opportunities for practice, for most completely unfamiliar languages most people will reach a point where they can have a simple conversation in 300 to 500 hours of diligent study and practice. To be able to talk like a native (except for the accent, which some people never manage to lose) takes more in the order of years. --Lambiam ^Talk 22:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Living in a society where the language is the most common is a good idea. If that's the only language people generally know, you'd be forced to leave it quickly, frustrating but fruitful... 惑乱分からん 10:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to some linguists such as Noam Chomsky, it is much more difficult for a person to learn a language after puberty. If you intend to learn a language, learn it as young as possible. It becomes harder as you grow older. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 01:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fear of sheep

What would be the technical name? --iamajpeg 22:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If the need for a "scientific" name arises for this grave disorder, which may cause insomnia, it would be probatophobia. --Lambiam ^Talk 22:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fear of a sheep would be oisophobia, from ois sheep. Fear of a small flock of sheep would be probatophobia (according to Liddell & Scott). alteripse 23:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What is the proper pronunciation for...

Moved here from the Humanities reference desk

Togare?

Thanks for your help. Dontknowsoiask 21:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)dontknowsoiask[reply]

In what language? alteripse 22:18, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean "Tagore", as in Rabindranath Tagore? In that case, the article contains the answer. --Lambiam ^Talk 22:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Simple grammar question

Hi - is it correct to say 'What of I?' - meaning 'What about me?'? Ta. Adambrowne666 23:55, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, 'of' takes the objective case. "What of me" is still not idiomatic, but is at least syntactically correct. JackofOz 00:18, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much.

I'm confused by your explanation, Jack. "What of I?" sounds idiomatic to me, though probably not correct in modern English. I've heard it many times used to mean something like "[And] what will be done to/thought of me?". freshofftheufo ΓΛĿЌ 07:55, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Really? I've never heard anyone say "What of I?", and "What of me?" sounds kind of archaic. I would advise the questioner to stick with "What about me?". --Richardrj ^talk ^email 08:01, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Me neither. I can't even conjure up a circumstance where one might say "What of I". Can you assist me, Freshgavin? JackofOz

It sounds like a perhaps ironically pretentious way of saying, "Yo, what about me" mnewmanqc 13:35, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did a google search and found some poetry using the construction (from 1990):

...And when sleep does not the torn mind heal,

When deep nightmares their face reveal,

What then? And what of I -

Who cannot forgo sleep, but if I sleep may die?[1]

It sounds perfectly natural to me in that sense, but only in that sense I guess. "What of me" sounds, by contrast, awkward to me. freshofftheufo ΓΛĿЌ 14:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another possible construction involves the rearrangement of the phrase "I know what I speak of" into "I know what of I speak". freshofftheufo ΓΛĿЌ 15:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Possible ... but the result is highly unidiomatic, grammatically dubious, and doesn't fit in the sense of meaning "what about me". JackofOz 20:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The second example, no, but the first example sounds idiomatic to me (a good choice of words in cryptic poetry), and it's quite precisely used to mean "what about me". freshofftheufo ΓΛĿЌ 03:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with JackofOz and play the part of the stodgy grammarian. What of me is perfectly normal, if a bit old-fashioned. What of I is incorrect (whether it could be acceptable in poetry is another debate). Of is a preposition, just like about, with, or from, yet we do not say about I. The only sense in which it could be correct would be if we considered I to be a noun (the I) i.e., the same as the word ego: We have already considered the question of They; now let us ask ourselves, 'What of I?' --Lesgles (talk) 22:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]