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March 2

Arabic surnames including al and bin

As one who spends time making sure that surnames in wiki-categories are properly sorted, one issue has always eluded me: Arabic surnames including the al particle.

Sometimes al is capitalised (Al Saud), sometimes not (al Saud).
Sometimes there's a space after the al (al Saud), sometimes not (alSaud).
Sometimes the al is joined to the main name with a hyphen (al-Saud), sometimes not.
Sometimes the whole surname is sorted under A, as if it starts with al, sometimes it's sorted under whatever letter starts the main name.
And seemingly every possible combination of the above choices makes its appearance somewhere.

Some of the same sorts of problems occur with bin names. Is it bin Laden, Osama, or Laden, Osama bin? (Although, I've ever seen bin-Laden.) Is there a guide for the layperson as to how to deal with these issues? Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:32, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's some vague guidance at WP:SUR, where bin Laden is used as an example. Deor (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am afraid there cannot be a simple "one size fits all" rule; these issues are also perplexing for Arabic indexers. And even inasmuch as they have rules for addressing them, the sort key may be language-dependent. For example, Dutch indexers will sort "Peter van de Kamp" using "Kamp, Peter van de", while English indexers are more likely to use "van de Kamp, Peter", as in the list of advisors of Alexander Nikolayevich Vyssotsky seen here. One confounding issue is whether the "al-XXX" bit is a true surname, like a family name, or an epithet. We wouldn't wish to sort "Ivan the Terrible" using "the Terrible, Ivan". Many of the issues arise already in selecting the most appropriate page name for an article; compare the discussion here. Further tightening of our rules should primarily focus on WP:NAME; given a page name "XXX YYY", in which "YYY" can be determined to be the subject's surname, sorting by surname should be on "YYY" as spelled in the page name according to our policies and Manual of Style. --Lambiam 10:49, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To add to the confusion, the "Al" in "Al Saud" is not actually the definite article, but an unrelated word meaning "family, dynasty, clan, house", so it is a reference to the House of Saud. Being a full word, such an "Al" should always be capitalized and should never be connected to the next word. --Theurgist (talk) 13:48, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To further add to the confusion, the "Al" in "Al Saud" is sometimes actually the definite article, as is the case for e.g. Ahmad Abu Al-Soud, unrelated to the House of Saud. 213.137.72.67 (talk) 20:46, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I think. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 16:12, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]